When I first started practicing family law I would encounter a number of visitation enforcement hearings in which the custodial parent tried to excuse his or her failure to have the children visit with the other parent because “the children didn’t want to.” Occasionally, and much to my frustration, the judges would sometime accept this excuse and not find the custodial parent in contempt. Early in my career I didn’t have an effective counter to these parents’ claims other than to hope the judge would enforce the order rather than buy the custodial parent’s excuse. It has been my more recent experience that, absent evidence of abuse, the court doesn’t accept these excuses as frequently.
However, in the interim, I have developed what I believe is an effective cross examination technique for a custodial parent who testifies that he or she won’t force the children to visit the other parent because the children don’t want to. I ask them what other things they expect their children to do that they don’t require them to do when they don’t want to. Can the children refuse to do their chores/eat their vegetables/practice their violin/brush their teeth if they don’t want to? Can their children drink bourbon for breakfast when they don’t want to drink milk? Can their children have sex with their boyfriend/girlfriend when they don’t want to spend the afternoon studying? Can their children go to the beach when they don’t want to go to school?
There’s a heck of a lot of things that parents force their children to do because they’re the parent and they decide what’s good for their child. Visiting the non-custodial parent–assuming the child really doesn’t want to visit and also assuming there’s no abuse going on–is one of those things the courts should be forcing upon the children and custodial parent. If the situation with the non-custodial parent gets bad enough, it should be the custodial parent’s obligation to seek an order reducing the other parent’s visitation, rather than simply denying visitation and expecting the court to not enforce its own orders.
Only one time in my career have I seen a child refuse to visit the non-custodial parent when the custodial parent supported the visitation and, in that case, the parties eventually agreed to forgo the non-custodial parent’s visitation when it became clear in (court-ordered) counseling why the child didn’t want to visit. I was hoping that the courts were getting away from letting children, with the support of the custodial parent, decide their own (lack of) visitation and that the courts were gradually seeing that this unwillingness to visit was frequently tied to the custodial parent’s disregard for the other parent. However, just today, I have discussed or been involved in three situations in which visitation has been denied because the custodial parent supported the child(ren)’s decision not to visit. It may be time to dust off my “bourbon for breakfast” script.
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I love your “bourbon for breakfast” analogy and will take advantage of it the next time I am faced with this situation.
I never believe that a child reaches a decision not to visit without help from the custodial parent.
The best book I ever read on domestic relations is Martin Gugenheim’s “What’s Wrong with Children’s Rights.” His premise is that children should have no involvement in custody and visitation issues, including no guardians, no lawyers, no counselors, and no conslultation. If parents love their children, they do not give them any say so as to whether or not to visit but that does not mean that the parent and the child cannot discuss modifications to suit their needs.
Great column.
On the claiming abuse issue as a general basis for “not forcing visitation”, did the custodial parent call DSS or report the alleged abuse to the authorities? Usually not, because there wasn’t any. . .at least one Judge here has added the child as a party and let them face the music with the custodial parent if they didn’t visit.
Amen. I agree. If parents who are separating or divorcing want healthy children, they need to encourage the relationship that their children have with the other parent and support it. I understand that it is not the most natural thing to do when you are separating or divorcing the other parent but as a parent we often make choices or sacrifices for the good of our children. This is definitely one of them.
I love some of your cross examples. I’m going to borrow those. The biggest problem that I encounter with this situation is a tween-age kid (say 11-14) who has not be “abused” in the traditional sense, but whose non-custodial parent has behaved so badly, for so long, that the child simply wants nothing to do with that parent. That, for me, is the hardest case, especially as a GAL. I try to gradually work the child into wanting see the other parent and encourage the non-custodial parent to curb some of the bad mouthing or other “non-abusive” behavior that has led to the problem in the first place.
MJ-
Unless the non-custodial parent represents a danger to the children, I tell my custodial clients to stick their children in the other parent’s car and tell them to enjoy the time the best they can. It my experience, the children, upon understanding that the custodial parent supports their visiting with the other parent, accept the visitation even if it isn’t exactly what they want to be doing.
Kids only get two parents and they need to have a good relationship with both whenever possible. Yet how often does the children’s relationship with the non custodial parent deteriorate after the parties separate? I am amazed that the family court fails to acknowledge this correlation and fails to attribute this correlation to actions–however subtle–by the custodial parent.
If the custodial parent wants the children to have a good relationship with the other parent, they almost always will. When the relationship begins to deteriorate, I believe we need to closely examine what the custodial parent is doing and take control from that parent and the children (unless there is actual evidence of abuse).
Your position assumes that the custodial parent is the villian. That is not always the case. I have seen custodial parents encourage, very adamantly, that their child should visit the “non-abusive” but poorly behaving visiting parent, to no avail. Each case has to be viewed on its own merits. There is little room for a broad brush approach in dealing with children.
I agree with MJ Goodwin that there should not be a broad brush approach. Not all non-custodial parents have the best interest of the children at heart.
Indeed MJ you are correct. Every case will be different, as different as the children are themselves. Out of three of my children the eldest was most able to stand up to her controlling father. The other two took a little longer but eventually they did too. Court ensued, the truth finally came out and their father handed me full custody as he was unable and unwilling to address the drinking problem that so plagued the children. The Judge held him accountable for what he had done to them and ordered him to address it with hope of regaining his children. Our Judges are extremely clever people who have seen it all before and can usually spot a liar at 20 paces, I respect their knowledge immensley. Looking back I should’ve taken them all when I left not done the 50/50 thing but I didn’t want to fight my children if they wanted to see him. One by one they left him and one by one I supported them. Of course I have been accused of stopping them from seeing him but this is simply untrue and bothers me not in the least.
I understand this blog is about the topic of letting children choose where they live. If we have raised honest, open, clear communicating children then don’t we, as a community, owe it to them to listen to them?
The right thing legally might not be the right thing personally.
I was one of the “good parents,” following the court order to the letter, sending my daughter for her four days a week with a mentally disturbed mother who manipulated and emotionally abused her. But there were no physical marks, the mother was incredibly personable and reasonable to any adults around. My daughter was going crazy (aged 9-12), while I hoped the private therapists who saw the damage would speak up.
Turns out therapists are professionally banned from offering custody advice (NOW they tell me!), so I needed to start a two-year process of a full psychiatric custody evaluation. Finally got it, it revealed exactly the craziness we all knew about, and my daughter has been 100% with me ever since.
So doing the “right thing” meant a kid lived half-time for four extra years in a horrific emotional environment, while the legal and theraputic machinery creaked on; thumbing my nose at the court could have saved her much of that trauma, and I often regret not taking that path.
California observer-
Note the exception I make for my views on this topic when there is evidence of abuse.
When there is abuse I suggest the custodial parent file an action to limit the other parent’s visitation. I acknowledge that it sometimes takes a period of counseling with the child to get the evidence of abusive behavior but I would rather see a child undergo brief periods of psychological abuse by the non-custodial parent, as the therapist develops evidence of abuse, than have custodial parents taking it upon themselves to decide when the non-custodial parent should have visitation.
Are you serious? You would rather see a child subjected to short term abuse while the therapist gets to the bottom of the matter than take the custodial’s parent’s word??
Please, please enlighten yourself to the nightmare of the emotional abuser. An Emotional Abuser leaves no physical scars. Instead, they can destroy one’s ability to function on an emotional level in no time at all. Emotionally abusive parents will do anything and everything to interfere with a successful relationship with a therapist, successful relationship with custodial parent, relationships with siblings, friends and extended family in order to control that child’s thoughts, words and deeds.
Emotional abusers are master manipulators who use thinly veiled threats to control their children. They maintain a Jekyll and Hyde demeanor to keep everyone on edge.
All emotional abusers put forth an image (front) designed to present positive image of themselves and their family. Misery for them and everyone involved is far better than failure or loss of control.
Emotionally abusive parents due the most damage when given time alone with their child. This is the worst possible scenerio for that child. The child is defenseless to disagree for fear of angering the parent and generally has no safe place to get away from or gain privacy from that parent.
To suggest that the custodial parent is the instigator in preventing children from visiting their noncustodial parent without looking at each situation on a case by case basis shows a total lack of regard for the family involved.
In cases where a child has a good relationship with the noncustodial parent, there is little that the custodial parent can possibly do to convince their children to remain away.
When a child is hesitant to leave with the noncustodial parent, then for heaven’s sake, sit up and listen. It’s time to take notice and give validation to the child’s concern. To do anything less is irresponsible.
Tweenagers are far more insightful than you seem willing to give credit. Kids know when they are being treated fairly as well as mistreated. What kids don’t know is who they can trust and believe.
If I have succeeded in at least prompting you to possibly rethink your position, then I will consider that a success : )
I am surprised at how cavalier professionals are about sending children into the lion’s den (disturbed parent) just in case the other parent is alienating the child. If there is evidence that a child is being emotionally abused or manipulated, shouldn’t a Judge check on the allegations before assuming the custodial parent is causing the rift? I am sympathetic to parents and children who are dealing with this selfish manipulation by a disturbed parent. In the case of California Observer I see a typical trend in the Court’s handling of this type problem.
1. I am sure this was a difficult time for everyone involved (especially the child) and it sounds like it lasted for several years which I believe was unnecessary.
2. During the ages of 9-12, children are just coming into a sense of who they are. They need to be able to trust themselves so that they can develop those skills into adulthood. When a disturbed parent is manipulating a child into not trusting what they know in favor of making the child believe the disturbed parent is right, it stunts this development and causes a lot of internal turmoil for the child.
3. Parental Alienation or manipulation is not that hard to figure out if someone is willing to take the time to investigate. I believe Judges should have a “plan” for making that happen which might start with a court appointed therapist and a well constructed set of questions. It should not go on for years requiring the “well” parent to prove the abuse.
WHY NOT ERROR CAUTIOUSLY ON THE SIDE OF THE CHILD? Let the adult deal with the injustice while a Judge’s determination is made. If the claims are false, let the other parent deal with the consequences of not telling the truth. Isn’t this what we are supposed to be teaching our children anyway?????
Lastly, I will repeat myself from another blog response. Family Court Judges should be focused on what is best for the children and the family. Defaulting visitation or custody to a disturbed parent is not in the best interest of either; it is in the best interest of one of the parties to the case. By the Court’s lack of response in Calif. Observer, the needs of the child were dismissed in favor of the non-custodial parent. The results forced a child into intensive therapy for years. I’m sure it was confusing for the child because they were trying to figure out if they were crazy. By nature, children do not want to be in therapy. When a child is in therapy due to a parent’s actions, I feel that represents the most heinous form of emotional abuse.
I also believe that Calif. Observer’s experience is not that uncommon.
I have a question about teenagers and visitation. I also call bullsh*t on allowing the self-absorbed teen to decide their own visitation. It blows my mind that the courts would allow such especially when there is absolutely no reason absent abuse that the child shouldn’t visit other than the custodial parent’s lack of support for the visitation. I have been told of a “15 year old rule” in SC, which says the custodial parent can not be held in contempt of a visitation order. Is this true and is there such a rule? If so, where can I access a copy of it? If this is true, then there is no reason to have or to modify a visitation order once a child turns 15, because no order can actually be enforced at that point.
I have fought for 8 years to maintain a healthy and as normal as possible relationship with my now 15 y/o daughter. I have joint legal custody with a visitation order but have had to involve law enforcement on at least two occasions to exercise visitation and there have been a number of other instances where my ex has used her power as custodial parent to frustrate and/or deny my parental rights; I was not notified of my daughter’s confirmation in the Methodist Church in direct contempt of our court order, which is only one instance of many in that regard.
In 2007, my ex moved to VA and provided a written offer to have our visitation order modified at her expense to include visitation on all holidays, the entire summer, and one visit per month to my residence at her expense. I never agreed to the change because agreeing to change the order would establish my consent for her to move my child away. I was opposed to the move but the legal advice I received at the time said that I had only about a 50% chance of stopping her. However, we have followed her visitation proposal with only minor deviation over the past three years.
On to present day, my ex planned a two-week vacation in Barbados including my daughter during middle of July. She told my daughter she was going and sent her to be the messenger to me. I was not included in any way in the planning. When I notified my ex that my wife and I had already planned our family vacation during that same time, suggested going a week or so later, and informed her that my parents were celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary during the time they were planning to go to Barbados, she then reverted back to the current order, which splits the summer equally so she could have that time regardless of my plans and the celebration of a significant family milestone. She ended up having to cancel her trip because my daughter’s passport had expired and she needed my signature to renew it.
In retaliation, my ex filed a complaint with the court to reduce my visitation to 2 weeks in the summer because my daughter no longer wants to spend all her holidays and the entire summer with me. My daughter became very upset with me because their vacation to Barbados was canceled. Obviously, my ex put our daughter in the middle and created a situation where she would resent me and any visitation, ordered or not.
If there is a 15 y/o rule, I am royally screwed. I have already had a preliminary hearing and there is a temporary order in place which includes a Guardian ad Litem; my daughter and I have an appointment with her in 3 days. Even though my daughter’s anger with me over the trip has subsided, I believe she is expected to be in lock-step with her mother and no matter how much she might enjoy her time here once she arrives, she will not betray her mother due to the alignment her mother has created over the past 8 years.
What do I do? I am representing my self because I have spent close to $50K in the past and have gotten no protections. I’m done spending money on this, going broke in the process, and having no protections. When I filed my answer to her complaint, I also filed contempt charges on her for the situations mentioned above as well as several others. I was hoping to use the charges as negotiating power to get her to a reasonable settlement w/out going to trial on her complaint or the contempt. I have since learned that the clerk of court’s office lost my charges; how convenient for my ex.
Any advice on how to approach this with the GAL would be appreciated.
Though certain your court date has long sensed past, may I suggest you stop playing the victim. To maintain a true connection and sincere relationship with your daughter even at this distance, use the gifts of electronics. Skype her regularly or use Face Time if you both have Ipads. Though not present in person, you certainly can be together through this use of technology.
The positive outcome of this is the undeniable documentation of your presences regularly and your attempts to connect. Any back and forth email conversations between you and your child, especially if it’s glowing after a face to face visit, may be used to further support any favorable changes in child visitation.
Ultimately though, what you are really aiming for is her desire to come stay with you not because it’s a court order but because she loves you, loves being with you and is there voluntarily. That way, when she turns 18 and has no legal obligation to visit whatsoever, she will continue to do so simply because you are that important to her.
I think that we as parents some how think we ‘own’ our kids or that they our kids “owe us” for all that we have done during their childhood.
The reality is that none of our children choose to be here, nor did they select you as their parent. Though for a period of time, you are legally obligated to provide for that child, a child is never legally obligated to be grateful for what they have been given.
Just remember parenting a child is not a right, it is a privilege. If your child has distanced him/herself from you, regardless the reason then show them how important they are in your life and how much their involvement in yours means to you. Actions speak far louder than words. :-)
Greg,
I have to call a loud and resounding BULLSH*T on your position. It is complete nonsense. The “right” of a parent to see their children should not be obstructed by the other parent; however, that “right” in no way places any responsibility on the other parent for its fulfillment or satisfaction. If the children are being forcibly restrained from visiting the non-custodial parent, then the court has some authority, but without evidence of forcible restraint, the court has no authority to interfere, because no order of the court has been violated. If the children choose not to go, then that is their choice, and it is up to the non-custodial parent to address the problem with the children, not the court’s or the custodial parent’s. If the non-custodial parent chooses not to address the children’s resistance to seeing him/her, then that is tantamount to abdication of the “right” to see the children. It is no small point that these children may share the custodial parent’s opinion of the non-custodial parent based solely upon the children’s experience with the non-custodial and may be making an informed decision based upon that experience, which, absent any information or evidence to the contrary, neither you nor the court are authorized to ignore or overrule.
Here here Dan.
I also call bullsh**! I have an 11 year old son that wants nothing to do with his non custodial father. Why because he only bothered to see him 3 times a year if that. This goes back to birth. I remarried when he was an infant. He bonded with the step father. His father is a full blown narcissist and I do not throw that out there lightly. During his infrequent visitations which I pushed vehemently on him to do, the non custodial father would make one negative comment after the other about me, my husband and his step brother if my son made the mistake of mentioning any of them.
His final visitation his father was doing a dance or jig he called it singing and laughing. My son thinking it was a funny thing asked him what he was doing and he told him that he was doing the dance he was planning to do at my funeral! I have lupus and am disabled with many medical problems. My son worries about this alot which his father would know if he bothered to talk to him but instead felt making a joke out of something that was a serious matter to my son without even a single thought. My son was so upset when he got home he said NOTHING for 2 days. That is how long it took me to get out of him what he was so upset about. When he told me nothing but rage poured out of him about his feelings about his father and how he just didnt want to go back because of all of the things he was saying and doing and then let me in on them all! I was floored! Here I had been trying to be a good parent and encourage a relationship between them and my son was being hurt by this man each time he bothered to take him for a visit.
Our daughter who was older and idealized him went all the time. He wouldnt take our son so many times and here I thought this would be what did damage! I told him that day I wouldnt make him go back unless he wanted to. His father only asked to see him again that Christmas 6 months after and expected me to force him to come. I had done all the forcing I intended to do. I told him he was welcome to talk to our son and see if he could fix the damage he had done and if he decided he wanted to come after all I would be more than happy to let him go. He didnt bother and has only ever made a stink over visitation when he was trying to arm wrestle me over forgiving his huge child support arrearage (owes me over 13k in past due support) and was having a contempt charge put on him.
I couldnt FORCE him to see our son or be a part of his life but I am expected to FORCE the child he has so neglected and treated so horribly to go and visit him??? How is THAT in the best interest of our child? There is no bond between them because he never tried to form one. Our son never even asks about him because he really feels nothing there. He has no void because he has a step father that he is so close to. I would forgive every dime of support and arrears for him to sign over his rights but he refuses to do that either.
I think my issue is sometimes the visitation contempt is used by nc parents only when they are being pressed for the back support they owe. I would love for his father to show a single time in the past 2 years he ever tried to see him or a single birthday card he ever sent or for that matter even a birthday or christmas present. Our daughter that actually idealized him now is 19 and has nothing to do with him either because she grew to see him through the eyes of an adult instead of a little girl that wanted to believe her daddy was a great man. Once she saw the real man, she now has nothing to do with him. The difference was they bonded and she did not have another fatherly relationship to fulfill that need as our son has so it took longer. But he managed to poison even that relationship..all by himself.
I feel for good parents that are denied visitation but what about those that dont bother with them but a few times a year and then holler fowl when the child no longer cares to see them? They have only themselves to blame. I couldnt force him to be a father to our son, I certainly wont force our son to be a son to his father either!
Erin:
I am not sure that your situation is the one my blog describes. Your ex-husband wanted nothing to do with your son. It’s no surprise your son reciprocated this lack of regard and didn’t want to visit his father.
It has been my general (though not sole) experience that when a child doesn’t want to visit a parent who desires a relationship with the child, and there’s been no real abuse, it’s because the custodial parent won’t advocate the other parent’s relationship with the child. You can always make up some reason for a child not wanting to visit, as no parent is perfect, but, absent abuse or parental hostility towards the child, those reasons only appear to gain traction when the custodial parent is resistant.
Greg,
I want to reiterate the point from my post, sorry for butting in Erin. The custodial parent has ZERO responsibility for the relationship that the children have with non-custodial parent. I say this as a NON-Custodial parent. My relationship with my children is my responsibility, not my ex’s. The premise of your argument is flawed. You wrongly assume that a relationship can be formed or repaired by a person who is not in that relationship. If the children don’t want to see the non-custodial parent, then it is the non-custodial parent’s responsibility to determine the reason and work it out with the children. Most people who complain about this type of visitation problem never made an effort to have a relationship with their children in the first place. They unreasonably think that now that they are ready to make a lazy half dead effort, everyone should bend over backwards to accommodate them. I say, “NO!!!” If they wanted a relationship with the children, then they should have started one when the children were young and worked from that foundation. The type of people that you are describing are lazy and irresponsible and think that they are “owed” a relationship with their children. If they REALLY wanted one, they would work for it.
Dan,
While not denying your experience was different, my experience representing parents (both custodial and non-custodial) is that the custodial parent has tremendous influence over a child’s relationship with the non-custodial parent. I believe most family court judges would agree with my assessment.
Greg, sure we have some. But frankly I had my hands full being his mother AND father while his dad chose to have nothing to do with him. Any attempt on my part to try and get his father to see him regularly was met with sarcasm and me being told that I am trying to shove his son down his throat and force him to see him. When all I was trying to get him to commit to was one single weekend a month! I could see what was going to happen and I felt my son needed his father too. But the ncp was NOT interested in that relationship and I can only do so much. I was just as powerless then as I would be now to try and force my son to go and visit these people that are so screwed up that they could care less about how he feels about them sitting there and verbally trashing everyone he loves and cares about in his home. The people that ARE there for him. His father is now threatening me with a contempt charge because our son wont go. I have documented my position on the only time he asked to see him and I refused. I told him the issued with our son and asked him to talk to him and work it out. Tell him how sorry he was and it will go a long way. He was really hurt and upset from it. His father said it was a bunch of bullshi** and he didnt have to do a damn thing. I said then enjoy the christmas with out him. I wont be forcing him to go. I have not received any further requests to see him since that christmas in 2008. But you can bet he will go before the judge and play the poor victim ncp that has had a cp practice parental alienation. If they sit down and talk to our son for 5 minutes they will know the only one that said anything to hurt the father/son relationship was the FATHER. The court filing is the 2nd attempt at even mentioning the visitation in 2 years. That is ALL on him. The thing is that is has NOTHING To do with him wanting to see his son and everything to do with not wanting to pay child support. He never wanted him, he resents supporting him and when I told him he could relinquish his parental rights and my husband would be more than pleased to adopt him he said he would never allow that to happen. He is just a concept to him that he wants to control but not pay for and certainly not be inconvenience with. He feels he owes his son no such conversation, apology or discussion. His exact word were he is the adult and our son is the child, he HAS NO RIGHTS, HE GOES WHERE HE IS TOLD!. Since he hasnt had to be a full time parent to any of our children their whole lives he has no concept of a healthy relationship with a child. I truly feel forcing him by phyical force to go with him would be a horrible thing to do to him. Especially since he has a very VALID reason for not wishing to be there!
I wanted to add that the last time my ex pushed for him to see him and this was 6 months after my son had come home so upset and I told my husband about how upset he was and how poor judgement he used is what he had said to our children, especially our young son who worries so much about me. At that time he told me to tell our son to “get over it!” and hung up the phone.
The Christmas he told me to tell our son if he chooses not to come then he will get nothing for christmas from him or his parents (the father lives with his parents and has for the last 7 years. I did tell my son this which I thought might change his mind about wanting to go. He didnt. He said he didnt want anything from any of them anyway. He said they are all mean to him when he is there and all they do is put him in his room all day. Our son has ADHD and can be trying, but I have never needed to keep him in his room all day and I cant imagine that would be a great way to have a visit with the son you have only seen 6 days in a year! Nothing he does fosters a positive relationship with him. Rest assured if he would sign the papers and terminate his rights our son would be so happy because he wants his step father to be made his real father. He loves him dearly and I am not sure it isnt more because of how awful the relationship really is with his father or if it is just them and how well they get along. He is actually closer to him than he is me! I am very glad he has him.
But mostly understand that this 9 year old cared NOTHING about not getting his presents and did not want them. He never got to bring anything home that they bought him in the past. Any gifts they gave him had to stay at their house only. He gave up on ever seeing any of his games and his playstations ever again. They were never really his to begin with.
I have a grandchild now and a step son. That is something I am huge about just from my experience with my ex and his family. Any gifts I buy go home with them!! PERIOD. There is nothing worse to me than giving your child the playstation they have always wanted and then telling them that they cant take it home with him, especially since even when he visited often that was only 6 times a year at the most!
I am just saying there are sometimes VERY good reasons the child doesnt want to go and visit and they are valid.
May I voice my sincere gratitude that my husband has never had any children. While I do have sympathy for others in this type of situation I am happy that I don’t have a dog in this fight.
My situation is a bit different but am looking for advise. My ex and I started out with a custody battle. Our son was 13 (we both had children from previous marriage, all whom are adults now). My son was being very rebellious that first summer, dad would talk to me like a dog and my son would hardly acknowledge me. Around Aug. that year my ex had an argument with my son and told him not to come back until he cut his hair. Please note, prior to filing for divorce my ex took the child in for at least 80% of his hair cuts. I asked the ex if we could meet somewhere to discuss the situation and at first he agree to a place and time and then called back and said that I assumed that he had time to talk to be but he had things to do. I don’t know what really happened but I think that there were some respect issues and some issues with the new girlfriend and my son. Fast forward 2 years, son and I get along better, but still have issues. Let me add that my mother always trash talked my dad after they divorced so I go out of my way to NOT saying anything bad about my ex and have encourage their relationship. Dad has only seen our son a hand full of times since and this summer has started to visit with him about once a month. I let him visit whenever they work something out. My issue is this: my ex refuses to speak with me and goes through our 15 year old son to arrange visits. I have a hard time getting times as to when he will be picking him up and dropping him off and just today he showed up about 50 minutes early. It was not a big deal but I am tired of being walked on and what this is teaching our son. I am afraid that if I address the issue the ex will make negative comments to me to our son, it wouldn’t be the first time, and cause friction between us. I am torn between saying nothing and just dealing with his inconsiderate ways or addressing it with him and if he is still being difficult telling him he can work with the visitation schedule that HE put together. This would hurt our son because I am pretty sure that our son is not welcome at the girlfriends home that my ex lives in. Any advise?
Also calling B#llsh!t! My two daughters live in a different state than their father; he doesn’t abuse them physically. He is entitled to visitation several times a year. He has not exercised it in years. He has called the girls twice this year. In his last conversation he blamed me for him not seeing them and said he wanted to see them, they said they didn’t feel comfortable seeing him after not seeing him or speaking to him for so long. When they were younger (now teenagers), I did everything I could to forge a relationship between them, but at their age they see he does not email, call, visit or pay for them to visit. They want nothing to do with him (I played no part in their decision). I couldn’t possibly force them to see him when he is having one of his fast fleeting ‘father moments’. All he does is disappear from their lives. They don’t know him, so I wouldn’t force them to go with a stranger, neither would I force them to see him knowing how damaging that would be for them.
Amelie:
Yours is not the situation I had in mind while writing this blog. Clearly a father who disappears and reappears into his children’s lives is not the type of father who should be blaming the mother when the children don’t want to visit. I was thinking more of the cases in which the children have a good relationship with their father until their parents separate and a bad relationship thereafter. I see such cases quite frequently and the consequences are tragic.
Please be aware that your generalization makes life more difficult for those of us who parent the children of disinterested non-custodial parents, especially when read by those who have limited or no experience with disinterested non-custodial parents. My daughter frequently gets upset because her father never calls her (even though she has her own cell and he does not in any way have to go through me) – and rarely returns her phone calls. He declines his visitation instead of taking responsibility for taking her to extra-curricular activities (yet he expects me to shoulder all of this responsibility and forego my fun time with her so that he can see her at his convenience.) Why is it that non-custodial parents are NEVER charged with contempt when they fail to take their child during court-ordered times just because it is inconvenient? This abdication of responsibility puts additional stress, expense and responsibility on the custodial parent – who would rather assume these extras than send their child into a situation where he/she is not wanted.
Children know when they feel loved and wanted. I firmly believe that when a parent is working to make a child feel loved and wanted they will develop a relationship that the other parent can not interfere with.
It broke my heart when she asked me why her dad doesn’t love her. I encouraged her to talk to him about it. There is nothing that I can say or do influence her perception of his actions. Something changed and he finally made the effort to trave 25 minutes to get her from an activity and take her to her best friend’s birthday. When I pointed out how this was a positive thing, she got mad at me.
Unfortunately, not all non-custodial parents understand the responsibilities of parenting, or if they understand, choose to abdicate these responsibilities because they can.
By the time a child is a teenager, the parent-child relationship is set. Why shouldn’t a child be allowed to choose which parent he/she wants to spend time with – especially if the child is doing well in school and staying out of trouble.
I have a 12 year old son and an X husband that will not communicate with me over anything relative in my son’s life, nor be truthful. I live 4 hours from my son and get him during vacations, not my choice. I know my son enjoys his visits with me. Court has allowed him to have one out a year to not visit, He is “telling” he is outing spring break and he will talk to me later about the other vacations. Here is what I think. CUSTODIAL parent should not give the child the choice to visit other parent. This should not be an option. His choices should be respectfully considered but decisions that should be made by an adult should not be left for the child to make. This last summer with court order that he be with me, officers were called to support my son and his father …4 times this last summer I went and proseeded to beg my son as if I were the child and he the adult for him to spend time with me. I have not seen a ounce of support from his father nor has he encouraged my son to have a relationship with me. By his actions I think they are reflected onto my son and he should require that he visit his mother so I can not help but think much of it is the custodial parents responsibility in seeing visitations are followed through with.
I have a 6 year old who refuses to see his father, to the point he hinds and makes him self sick by getting so upset this has gone on for 4 years. His father on the other hand has never truly spent time with to get to know him even thou he takes him every other weekend and 3 weeks during the summer. This past summer our son was so upset to come home he started scratching at his own legs in order to get thru to his dad he wanted to come home. His fathers interest lie in me he uses our son as a pawn when he has him to get to me. I have now signed him for counseling to get to the underling problem as to why he doesnt want to go. we are going to court soon again i am trying to reduce the visits till after therepy hopefully. In my mind as a custodial parent i can not create the bond that they they need to build nore can i build that trust he needs with his dad that in my eyes should be up to him to do as a father.
I am newly married, for almost a year now and my husband has a son from a previous relationship. From a relationship that was over way before I met him, but once the mother the custodial parent found out that he married someone (me) she up and disappeared for months, changed her phone number completely snatched his son out of his life. This went on with no contact or anything for about three months and when she was ready to ask for money she contacts him and asks for money but still wont allow my husband to see his son. No vistitation or child support payments are court orders as of yet. I advised my husband to himself on child support and file for visitation because she isnt civil at all. Its sad, because sometimes it is the custodial parent and it hurts me so becuase I am a product of this myself when my parents were divorced.
Me soon to be ex moved out in July of last year. She left without any forwarding address or contact info. She took my 9 year old daughter with her. Had a temporary hearing where it was voluntary visitation and child support. I was unemployed at the time. The mediator said it was a case of Parental Alienation. My ex has not promoted any realationship with my daugher. All my ex says is that my daughter does not want to see me. There is a history of mental illness in her family. It’s pretty sad when someone continues to lie to the court and her attorney. When we were together I was the main caregiver for the child.
I am now going to take my ex back to court to become primary custodian of my daughter. I believe a child should have both parents in there life. It is the responsibility of the primary custodian to facilitate that relationship. Children are easily influenced by who they are around everyday.
How is my husband suppose to “force” a 13 year old child to get on a bus with her mother when she doesn’t want to go?Pick her up?Drag her?Excuse me,why should he be the one doing it?Let her mother drag her.The non custodial mother has already accused him of being violent.Yes she will do her chores and if dad or I (her step mother) tell her too.She will go to bed or do her homework.We have taught all our children that they have responsibilities just as we all do.We have also taught her to do what is RIGHT not what is easy.She has reasons for not seeing her mother and they are between her mother and her.We do encourage her to talk to her mother and to see her mother.She chooses not too.In time she many be ready to,but for right now her decision is made.How can we tell her not to let people bully her then turn around and bully her into doing what she feels is WRONG.Not “not gonna eat my veggies” wrong,allowing someone who betrayed you,lied to you and about you,to dictate your life wrong.As was said before it is the responsibility of the non custodial parent to fix the relationship.He and I have no control over their relationship nor would we want any.
How do you think it feels to be a child who knows that if they do not go with this person,who for what ever reason they do not want to be around,their custodial parent will be punished?I can tell you how it feels cause I was there.It is standing in front of the nastiest BULLY you have ever had to face.One who can put you parent in jail if you will not sacrifice yourself.Let me tell you it doesn’t make one too fond of lawyers or judges at all.
Here’s what I can tell you…when my husband and I went to pick up his kids one day, they were 9 and 11, they refused to get into the car and go with us. After several minutes of listening to my husband try to reason with the kids, I told him to just leave it. That we would call our attorney in the morning. Come to find out, I did the right thing. Evidently in this state, if you so much as lay a hand on a child at that age, they can have you arrested for unwanted touching as well as assault. There’s not much you can do. Not unless you want to run the risk of going to jail. Yup…that always look good in a hearing for visitation. The attorney said it would have played right into the hands of their mother and that in all likelihood, that’s exactly what she was hoping for. Now we’re dealing with our 7 1/2 year old grandson. And he hates seeing his father. And my daughter’s boyfriend is not better. I made a police report, but she lied and told them I was telling the child what to say about his father and her boyfriend. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Now, all I can tell him, is just try to hang in there, that in just a couple of years, he’ll be able to say no to all of it. We live in a state without grandparents rights, so I have to be very careful how I handle things so as not lose contact with him as we are his only safe place to fall. He’s a sweetie pie and I wouldn’t trade that little guy for the world. I’m up this late because I’m researching legal rights of 7/8 year olds. So far, not finding much of anything. I have to find him something…..
My stepdaughter is 14. She told my husband that she wants to live with us. My husband and his ex-wife have alternating week custody. If my stepdaughter refuses to go with her mom, how is my husband supposed to force her into the car with her mom? At some point a parent cannot force their child to go with the other parent without causing physical and emotional damage. We have encouraged her to talk to her mom about her feelings in order to work things out. But at the end of the day, if she decides not to go, how can we make her?
i would like to find a support group for those of us parents whom have done the right thing and still get punished…my son was only 1 wheni divirced m y ex..married the love of my life and he has raised my son as his own. My son is now 11 and doesn’t want anything to do with his bio father..we just recently had a court hearing where he was trying to find me in contempt of the visatation order becasue in winter of 08 he ahd a warrent issued for his arrest, hid out from it until christmas of 2010 served sixth months and a day after he got out had me served w papers…well the judge saw right through him, found me not guilty but did want us to try visatation again…i am having my attorneys to file modification so the visits can be supervised but have to let my son go until we can get before the judge again…my ex is honestly a worthless person, owes me well over $20,000 in child support, has a really bad drug problem and anger issues and i really feel something needs to be changed in the system…we have begged him to allow my husband to adopt my son but of course he says i will fight you on it …it’s fine we can go spend all this money and win in the end becasue i truly fill the best interest of the child is to be with me, his stepdad whom he calls his dad not the ex and 3 sisters…he has had any contact with my ex in over three years and now i am forced to through him into the loins den…i am just praying to god we get a quick court date and can finally rid my ex of the little rights he has still left…no job, no car, no dl, no house of his own muches off of his sisters and that is not someone i would call a responsible parent….and the drug problem is bad he has even admitted it to my husband on several occasions….so i just would like to find a support group or someone i can talk to about this that maybe has been in this situation before…thank so much and looking forward to talking with someone!
I wanted to give an update. We went to court on the contempt charge my husband filed against me. I wasn’t able to get an attorney due to my husband being laid off and me with only disability as an income. He had the same attorney he has had in several hearings where he was found in contempt by the AG office for not paying child support at times for years.
The judge appointed me an attorney due to the jail time being involved. That attorney spoke to me and our daughter from the marriage who is a 20yo, married with a 6 month old of her own. After speaking to her he had the full picture and asked for a continuance. He said he couldnt represent me but helped me type up the motion to file with the associate judge to modify the visitation to being supervised only by the court and to modify custody to me having sole custody instead of joint in the interest of the child. I filed it and we had our court hearing earlier this month. I still had no attorney and had to do it on my own against him having one. Well I got everything I asked for. After testimony where my ex lied repeatedly. After the last hearing where he saw my daughter there he sent her and her daughter (who he has also never seen) a birthday/Christmas present. He sent it to our home where she lives with us and her brother. When I brought this up and then asked him what he sent his son for Christmas he stated he “donated a bicycle in his name). When asked for a receipt for these bicycles (he claims he did this for the last 3 years) he of course had none. Even though he actually saved a receipt for a $7.00 shirt he bought our son at one of his rare visits and gave it to the judge to knock of his 13K support arrears.
I was lucky to have an informal judge as well as one that saw through his lies. I was asking the court to require counseling with him and our son and ONLY when the counselor believes that it will be emotionally safe for or son to be forced if necessary to go will he have court supervised visits. Also, I asked that HE pay for it. His father actually stated he thought it was crazy and that he felt he just needed to take him to a ballgame and it would all be fixed. I said no..that might have fixed it had he had the where with all to do this 3 years ago when the whole thing happened. But then a phone call was too much to do.
He is now required to go to counseling and also go to counseling WITH our son. He is required to pay for both separate for both of them as well as counseling together with a particular counselor that specializes in ADHD children and children from “abusive parents”. You see while she may have listened to me and believed me, she had to weigh that with the fact that we have a poor relationship. However, she could see clearly that our daughter was telling 100% the truth and even when it contradicted her fathers testimony. Since she is an adult, she felt her own opinion about the relationship her brother had with his father held a lot of weight. Also because she was there and saw it first hand. She said that once the counselor felt enough progress had been made that our son would be “comfortable” in the presence of his father she would allow court supervised visits. When he asked how long that would go on. Her answer was “As long as it takes for your client to learn how to treat his children in a nurturing way and how to speak to them in their presence. Your client set this all in motion with his own behavior with his children. Your client has charged the mother with parental alienation. I have only heard testimony of alienation practiced on his part by his statements to his children about the mother.”
He is also having to go to a 3 month parenting class.
The thing is, I was told by his attorney while we were waiting in the hall for court to start once he saw I had no attorney and was pro se, that he would be sending me the requests for visitation following the hearing and the police would be at our home if required. Yes, that is how you make a kid go to dad’s! Threaten him or his mom with jail! Why not make a phone call to him instead? That he never even tried. The attorney assumed that me on my own was no threat. The thing I had on my side was the TRUTH. He never even alleged a single time in his contempt action of ONE TIME that I turned him away for visitation. Why? Because he never even tried to pick him UP. I had plenty of witnesses to prove that he didnt.
This is just being posted as a follow up. We still have the follow up contempt hearing to go to later this month where I DO have an attorney. That one doesnt worry me at all. The judge we went before actually wrote on the recs that “Based on testimony given by the father, mother and witnesses the father abandoned his son.
Due to emotional abuse on the fathers part as well as negative statements regarding the mother, visitation is being suspended pending intense counseling for the child and parenting classes for the father. If Father follows ALL of counselors recommendations will visitation begin. Visits are to be court supervised till court deems no longer necessary”
I learned several things. One, telling the NC parent on the phone the child wont go is NOT contempt. Before it can even be CONSIDERED contempt (and this is subjective on the courts part) the NC parent must actually come to your home to pick the child up.
I also learned that even without an attorney if you are there before the court, have the truth on your side as well as many witnesses and make sure you have a few impartial ones you CAN get justice. Keep ALL communication between you. One of the things that helped me the most was an email between us regarding the Christmas directly following the final straw between my ex and our son. It was dated, but mostly it was proof of what was happening AT THAT TIME in lieu of me telling the court what happened 3 years later. The judge actually commented on that. I even told the judge that I was fully agreeable and even requesting our son to be interviewed by court services. If this was something she felt necessary to clarify anything I would be glad to make him available.
My ex’s attorney even made an argument about my ex having to pay for the counseling. He felt that I should pay since I was the only one that felt it necessary. This really ticked off the judge because she said “Actually it isn’t JUST the mother. I believe it is necessary as well. The mother had nothing to do with the deterioration of the parent/child relationship. That rests on your clients shoulders and therefore the cost does as well.”
Don’t give up guys. If there is a VALID reason for the child not visiting the NC parent forcing the child to go is NOT the answer. If there is a breakdown between the NC parent and child and it is something that CAN be fixed, offer to have the NC and child go to counseling. Send it in WRITING. This shows that YOU as the CP are in fact doing all you can to help. It isnt our responsibility to FORCE the child to go, but it is our responsibility to use our influence to help heal the rift as well as heal the child.
I know my ex won’t be a part of the counseling based on past experience. He will do as he always has and walk away. I am however, after talking to the counselor the judge recommended and finding his insurance will cover it, taking our son there for his OWN benefit. I don’t think it will heal the rift between them, but I feel it isn’t healthy for our son to hate him either. I want to make sure he knows and understands that he deserved to be treated better. I am going to find a way to make this a positive thing for our son, one way or another. With or without the help of his father.
Yea! Erin! I am so glad to read that the judge in your case was able to bring out your ex’s true colors.
Thank you! I was as well. I was terrified having never even been in a trial or hearing before, much less doing it pro se! I am very lucky I had an ex that showed his arrogance. When I said before he is a narcissist, I mean a pathological one. I knew not long after we married his thinking was wrong but they can be very good at making you think they are ok. That and I wanted to believe it. It was my mistake and I hate that my children had to pay the price as well.
I was afraid but I knew one thing for sure. He would be able to maintain his composure as long as his attorney questioned him. However, when I was the one doing it, I had a feeling he would show his true colors and he did. Between his attitude, obvious lies and our daughters testimony the judge would have had to ignore a lot to rule in his favor. I hoped for the best, but I was surprised by how well she got the situation and made sure he knew it.
We still have the follow up hearing with a different judge. I am not worried though. The attorney I spoke to said that it had no merritt before I had the other hearing and now based on the ruling in the other court even less.
What is sad is the fact that he will see this as an assault on him rather than a wake up call to do right by his child. If it were me, I would be there at each and ever counseling session doing whatever I could do work things out.
I have raised 5 children. All but my youngest are grown. We all had times where things were rough. Times they hated me I am sure when they were teenagers. Giving up was just never an option. Even when they wouldnt speak to me, I would just keep telling them I loved them and was here when they were ready to talk. When one of my daughters was really going off the straight and narrow, I had left that very message on her cell each and every day till finally she WAS ready and we worked it all out. It CAN be done. Easy..NO..but then nothing worth while ever really is.
Greg:
Your blog really describes my situation to tee. I have three children ages 15, 13 and 12. When my wife and I told the children about our impending divorce, my wife used the opportunity to blame it all on me, saying that she didn’t want a divorce, it was all “your father’s choice”, etc. The two older children immediately began rejecting me.
(background: wife is a fundamentalist Christian who has home-schooled kids for the past eight years. (I am Catholic) Kids have been brought up to believe that divorce is “evil” and that only selfish, self-centered parents get divorces. Wife had resisted my insistence on ending homeschooling and other significant child-rearing issues. I was very concerned that my children were being raised in a very insular environment with a marked distrust for the outside world. Our frequent clashes over these issues ultimately led to my decision to end the marriage.)
Once I moved out of the house, the two older children refused to have any contact with me. when I would call the house, nobody would answer. When someone would answer, once they heard my voice they would hang up the phone. My younger child tells me that this is done with mom’s knowledge and no punishment. I have been lied to about the existence of children’s cell phones (I’ve been told they don’t exist) and e-mail addresses. The only way to contact the children is to physically drive over to the house unannounced but that’s no guarantee since my wife meet me at the door and tell me the children don’t want to see me.
The younger child would come to see me and spend time with me and all was good. (in fact, his insistence on having a good relationship with me has put him at odds with his siblings as well as his mother and, for the last month, he has been living with me full time) However, when it became apparent to me that my wife was not encouraging a continuing relationship between me and the two older children, I filed a request for the court to appoint minors counsel who in turn crafted a temporary visitation plan calling for alternating weekends and midweek visitations along with reunification therapy. My younger child gladly comes to see me. However, the older two almost universally refused to obey the visitation order and have expressed outright contempt for me as well as the court, minors counsel and the reunification therapist. Mom, who heretofore has been able to make the kids do whatever she wanted with a stern glance, would just stand there, shrug her shoulders and say that she couldn’t make them obey. It was all for show—a big act.
Mom even hijacked the reunification therapy. The court order made me responsible for picking up the kids and taking them to therapy. As you might expect, the two older children refused to get in my car. Minors counsel told mother that she was responsible for bringing the children to therapy unless they got in the car, obviously thinking that this would force her to read to children the riot act. However, it appears that this is what she had in mind all along: controlling transportation to and from the sessions.
The kicker came with a trumped up child abuse claim which was investigated by CPS. Shortly after Mom’s CPS complaint, mom unilaterally deviated from the visitation plan and told our youngest child “you’re going to live with your father” . Apparently our youngest was being accused of being “a traitor” for agreeing to continue his weekend visitation with me even though his sibling and the mother had accused me of child abuse. Sending one child to live with the parent that she was accusing of abuse was not lost on the CPS investigator who told minors counsel that if mom pursued the complaint, she would recommend that custody of all three children be given to me.
After four months of almost no visitation and a bogus child abuse report to CPS, I had finally had enough and asked for a full custody evaluation. Minors counsel, who originally poo-pooed my initial complaints of parental alienation, now believes that mom is actively working against reunification. Having said that, mom is very smart and manipulative and is careful not to be overt in her alienation. my two older children are, unfortunately, willing accomplices. During therapy sessions they he expressed opinions that I have heard my wife express 100 times in different contexts. The children’s mouths are moving, but it’s her voice that I’m hearing.
I am now looking at a $20,000 custody evaluation which, at the end of the day, will likely mirror the visitation plan crafted by minors counsel at the beginning with no guarantee that the children will obey the recommendations. However, the evaluation report will likely make some concrete findings with respect to mom’s alienating objectives/conduct. At the hearing where the judge ordered the custody evaluation, the judge even raised the specter of dependency court if the children refused to obey.
Minors counsel told me in private that he was not in favor of recommending that I have full custody of the two older children—-not because I am a bad parent, but because he is fearful that they will continue to make false abuse claims against me. He did tell the judge that the two older children express opinions that “one generally sees being voiced by a spouse going through a divorce, not a child…”, i.e. “he abandoned us… he doesn’t deserve us… when he made the decision to divorce mom, he divorced all of us… he forfeited his family….if he really loved us he wouldn’t have left us”.
The remedies seem pretty straightforward when a custodial parent is overtly interfering with visitation. The “plausible deniability” strategy is much more insidious.
I have read many of these blogs and find it interesting that there are good parents in the situation and there are bad parents in the situation. I filed for divorce before my daughter was born because my husband did not want children. After my daughter was born the only important thing to my ex-husband was not paying too much child support. He willing gave me sole legal and sole physical custody of our daughter in exchange for a child support amount that was only about 25% of what he should have been paying. He didn’t see her for more than 2 years after that. When she was 2 1/2 y/o, he threatened to kidnap her to Mexico, I placed a restraining order on him and we went back to court. The court was going to make him pay the full child support, so again he offered to me sole legal and sole physical custody in exchange for dropping the restraining order and a low child support amount. From that point the court ordered anger management, parenting classes and CPR classes since my daughter has severe asthma. The ex-husband began to visit infrequently, but, nontheless, visit. I never bad mouthed him or talked down to him. I never discouraged the relationship. When my daughter turned 9, the ex-husband starting calling her directly and asking her about visitation, if she wanted him to visit or not. Sometimes she would agree and sometimes she would say no. Fast forward to 2010, my daughter is 10 and I have lost my job. I asked the ex-husband for more support and he laughed so I took him back to court. He is married to an attorney so they announced, when the judge forced him to pay the full amount, that they would be seeking custody of the child. Now here we are in 2012 and the court is granting, after 12 years, shared custody. The relationship between him and my daughter has always been a strained one. When I offered suggestions on how to improve the relationship to the ex-husband, he told me to butt out. My daughter is beside herself with worry and grief over having to now go to visit him every other week after 12 years of not having to. The ex-husband treated her like an adult and allowing her decisions but now I have to force her to do something because a court has told her she has no decision. I am accused of parent alienation because he was a “passive participant” in our daughter’s life, but the court doesn’t see that he gave up the relationship because he didn’t want to pay money to help me with her. I believe this whole concept of parent alienation is a title that the justice system uses to make excuses for a “passive parent” to all of a sudden wake up, smell the coffee, and realize “hey, I think now I am ready to be a good parent”. The courts don’t realize the damage they do to a child. Children do see when they are loved and when they are an inconvenience and no matter that the court says they think it is in the childs best interest, they don’t really know and that is the courts way of saying, he, let there be 50/50 so that we can seem fair and not at fault.
I too have read these messages and I have to say for the most part I would agree about a child/children visiting the other parent-but it is not always in the best interest of the child.
We are in the middle of a big mess now and its because our son does not want to visit his biological mother, his reasons?
She insists that he has asthma and has to take medicine for it, she insists that he had pnuemonia (hospital records refute that diagnosis) and called CPS because we were withholding his medicine from him-
She got some behaviour evaluation company to examine him and told them he had “Mental Problems” and was Handicaped-all of which can be verified otherwise.
In five years she has called CPS twice on us-case is now marked Child Custody Battle and they will no longer respond to her on this issue, and the local police 3 times making accusations that again can be verified otherwise.
She is living with a woman partner out in the middle of nowhere and he is a 15 year old who has never lived in that kind of a situation and is not interested in changing now.
The biological mother will also tell you she has 1. Lupus,
2. M.S, 3. Scolioisis and Cancer all at the same time-none of which has been diagnosed by a Medical Doctor, she goes on line and looks up symptoms and self diagnosis herself she works periodically as a vet tech and will help herself to the medicines there-of course we don’t have written proof but when she was with the childs father she would bring them home and take them.
In addition to all of this she is a “proclaimed” psychic, she can talk to trees and they talk back, she talks to animals and they also talk back, she communicates with ghosts that have been in every house she ever lived in including a brand new one that was just built.
I can keep going on but you get the point, NOT all cases are the same and NOT children need to be subjected to this kind of thing-and for the record she does take him out to her Psychic Healing Fairs, and Tarot Readings.
We are headed back to court and hopefully this time the judge will listen to the facts and truth and not what she thinks they should hear.