Calling bullsh*t on custodial parents who let the children decide their visitation

Posted Wednesday, August 4th, 2010 by Gregory Forman
Filed under Child Custody, Contempt/Enforcement of Orders, Litigation Strategy, Not South Carolina Specific, Of Interest to Family Court Litigants, Of Interest to Family Law Attorneys, Visitation

When I first started practicing family law I would encounter a number of visitation enforcement hearings in which the custodial parent tried to excuse his or her failure to have the children visit with the other parent because “the children didn’t want to.”  Occasionally, and much to my frustration, the judges would sometimes accept this excuse and not find the custodial parent in contempt.  Early in my career I didn’t have an effective counter to these parents’ claims other than to hope the judge would enforce the order rather than buy the custodial parent’s excuse.  It has been my more recent experience that, absent evidence of abuse, the court doesn’t accept these excuses as frequently.

However, in the interim, I have developed what I believe is an effective cross examination technique for a custodial parent who testifies that he or she won’t force the children to visit the other parent because the children don’t want to.  I ask them what other things they expect their children to do that they don’t require them to do when they don’t want to.  Can the children refuse to do their chores/eat their vegetables/practice their violin/brush their teeth if they don’t want to?  Can their children drink bourbon for breakfast when they don’t want to drink milk?  Can their children have sex with their boyfriend/girlfriend when they don’t want to spend the afternoon studying?  Can their children go to the beach when they don’t want to go to school?

There’s a heck of a lot of things that parents force their children to do because they’re the parent and they decide what’s good for their child.  Visiting the non-custodial parent–assuming the child really doesn’t want to visit and also assuming there’s no abuse going on–is one of those things the courts should be forcing upon the children and custodial parent.  If the situation with the non-custodial parent gets bad enough, it should be the custodial parent’s obligation to seek an order reducing the other parent’s visitation, rather than simply denying visitation and expecting the court to not enforce its own orders.

Only one time in my career have I seen a child refuse to visit the non-custodial parent when the custodial parent supported the visitation and, in that case, the parties eventually agreed to forgo the non-custodial parent’s visitation when it became clear in (court-ordered) counseling why the child didn’t want to visit.  I was hoping that the courts were getting away from letting children, with the support of the custodial parent, decide their own (lack of) visitation and that the courts were gradually seeing that this unwillingness to visit was frequently tied to the custodial parent’s disregard for the other parent.  However, just today, I have discussed or been involved in three situations in which visitation has been denied because the custodial parent supported the child(ren)’s decision not to visit.  It may be time to dust off my “bourbon for breakfast” script.

591 thoughts on Calling bullsh*t on custodial parents who let the children decide their visitation

  1. Hopeless says:

    Greg,
    I completely understand your position on visitation. This very thing is happening with my sister and my nephew. The father had no job, no home, no vehicle and sued my sister for custody. The judge was retiring and quite frankly, I think he was tired of the case and handed over custody of my nephew to his dad. The judge claimed he did this based on the chaos that was occurring in the home. My sister had moved several times and my nephew was in and out of different schools. The father was to obtain a home within a month, and get caught up on his child support were his only two requirements. After my nephew moved in with his dad, he was removed from the public school system with the claim that he is being home schooled. Which by the way, is not happening because in Indiana the only proof that is required is an attendance record with absolutely no proof the child is learning. The father’s idea of education is anti-government propaganda and drilling into his head details about the Illuminati. My sister has been in and out of courts due to visitation issues and the father has been found in contempt several times. However, now the situation is quite different because my nephew is 14 years old. The father has videotaped my nephew stating that he is not being abused and that he does not want to see my sister. All the while the father is asking him questions like, “Now are you being smacked in the face for saying these things? There is no abuse occurring correct? This is solely you speaking?” My nephew the whole time agreeing or disagreeing as if he were on a game show. My sister was told by lawyers that the situation is worthless that the father will basically fight her until the child is 18. The father has stated this exact statement. They have also told her that the judge may say that there has to be a visitation schedule, but who will enforce it?
    I am a divorced mother of two, and even though I don’t always agree with my children’s father, but I try to keep these amicable for their sake. It would be a cold day in hell that I would let my children choose whether or not they wanted to see their father. If both parents were still together would we let the child override the direction of either parent? Hell no! So why on earth would we allow it to happen when the parents are apart? It’s called mutual respect and when you allow a child to have that power what do these parents think is going to happen when they are 18? They are going to disrespect every authority figure in their life. Including the custodial parent who encouraged their right to an opinion. Not to mention, when you alienate a child from a loving parent what does this to do them emotionally? My question is, what recourse is there for the non-custodial parent when the custodial parent only gets a slap on the hand for being in contempt? What can be done?

    1. Michael says:

      “If both parents were still together would we let the child override the direction of either parent? Hell no! So why on earth would we allow it to happen when the parents are apart?”. While this statement in essence is true, one needs to consider WHY the parents are apart. Is the non-custodial a “loving parent”, is there mutual respect? If these things are true, tell me what basis a child would have to refuse to see the non-custodial. In my experience, there is always an underlying problem. You as parents thrust your child into a situation they don’t want to be in. They want a SET of parents with them. Especially if that was the family dynamic at birth. Thus reactions, emotions and feelings will be different now that a divorce has occurred. Its called FALLOUT. No custodial parent should encourage a child to disrespect the other parent. But the non-custodial has to realize he/she will have to work harder now that they are limited on how often they are with the child(ren). It is what it is. I have had numerous children in this situation express their feelings on the subject. Everyone of them, each and every one of them use the same expression, “This sucks”. Its so unfair to the children when there is a divorce. Two adults who made vows and promises are not capable of sticking to those vows and promises. So before you concern yourself too much about what will happen to them when they turn 18 because the custodial allows them to “override the direction of either parent”…consider the damage that both parents have already done. Give the kids some leeway and understanding while they are part of this new arrangement that the 2 supposedly mature adults caused.

    2. terry menefee says:

      this is very simple, I have no doubt that no one man has ever been persecuted by aiken county as much as I have. If a teenager were to be given the opportunity to read the many court transcript, they male or female would immediately summarize my case as sex discrimination.  Anyone would. This judge and dss said assuring things to my wife constantly while I got mean looks and sharp hateful coment at every statement.  Again ill say I ask for a drug test because I fear for my life and my sons after numerous drug fueled rages from my wife that were accuring more often constantly.  Most of witch she would not even remember.  My son had grown scared of his mother . My son loved his mother he was just afraid she would hurt him. He called me several times at work to tell me he was hiding out of fear and I could here his mother screaming for him every obscenity known to man. I gave dss and the guardian add litem hours of digital recordings of her doing just that. Recordings she called his cell phone and left voice mails calling him a f bastard. I gave dss and guardian ad litem a signed statement from 5 different people with eye witness to her leaving my son at home at age 10 at night while I was at work to go 3 miles to get stoned and have sex . Three of those witnesed my wife bragging about drugging my child with nighttime cold meds or nighttime Tylenol so he would not awake while she was gone on her sex drug trips. In a house that incidentally burned a month after I filed for divorce. I believe she set fire to it because she could not find her very incriminating diary I had found. I gave the same dss and guardian ad litem letters showing where my wife’s sister Deborah Elliott begged me to get a toxin screen, because she feared her sister was trying to poison me and my son because of unexplained prolonged sickness.  I did there was some unexplained chemical in my blood but no proof. My wife read books of murder misterys constantly and watched all she could of them on tv. I stopped eating or drinking anything that had been out of my site and in a month I was well from a sickness I had for two years. My child told these same dss and guardian how he was scared of his mother how he had seen her using powder on a mirror and a straw. That he had took some from her several times and gave it to me when I got home powder in tiny plastic bags,  pills by the hundreds and marijuana at different times. Valery doda one of her friend s gave a statement to these same two dss and the guardien add litem patric McWilliams . A written statement that daniel my son had been dropped of at her house by my wife to spend play time with her children and when she brought him back home at the time my wife instructed that my wife was not there and valerie called me and I was 500 miles away in a tractor trailer . I told her to go  a mile away and look at the local drug dealers house for our gold van. She said it was there,  she heard loud music and beat on the door thinking she was being told to come in she opened the door and what she found was my wife setting on top a man on couch having sex. They were given diary inserts  in my wife’s hand writing bragging to her self about having sex with a man and his wife at the same time. My son gave a full description of his mother making regular stops to the cemetery on Hampton street after she picked him up at school for years,  stealing  roses from fresh dirt cover graves and I found these flowers in our house constantly. Also to several dss and gal .My son told of how his mother made him steal candles from bilo numerus time. Sir I could continue with this type of  evidence description that was given to the courts for the rest of this day . My point being this corrupt group of state employees knew without a doubt my wife was unfit in every way before a month of this nearly 3 years was started.  My  son and I both passed a polygraph from out of this county showing we were telling the truth and that was given to the courts. On the drug test. I demanded drug test the wife’s attorneys argued it was a insult. I drive a tractor trailer I’m tested so much and I had my employer pepperidge farm s give the court 15 years of good drug test on me all truly by surprise by the department of transportation.  Everyone knows I’m not a drug user. Again I ask for these test. The hair follicle test on my wife came back showing nothing even though she had admitted to smoking pot in court and was on numerous prescription drugs. The lab techs will all tell you that is nearly impossible that everyone shows something that it was like testing a wig . And the judge only ordered a 5 panel test but since I was paying for the test I had paid for the most extensive test they could do..my wife left the court that morning after being ordered to take this test as a blonde with beautiful hair down to the middle of her back when she got to the drug lab with my niece shannon kitts a R.N. my wife’s hair was a foot shorter a completely different color and looked like her hair had been in acid,  looked like she had aged 30 years over nite. The day after the test came back I copied a Facebook post of hers bragging about how she had me by the balls thanks to TOXIN WASH . I searched it on the internet and found it advertised as a shampoo for passing hair follicle test. When this was give to the judge she just stated there was no such shampoo that works on that. Again I ask for this test my wife tried to get out of taking it. I had even given the courts a date where my wife had totalled a new car, broke her back,  caused serious head damage to my son 5 years earlier that I had told doctors to test her and my wife refused to give a sample but the doctors forced her too. She failed this test with xanax and marijuana. Judge refused to order those records . On my test it showed everything,  oxycodone I been blown off a tractor trailer a month before it was a prescription from a operation I had a year before . Vitamins cholesterol meds several things all prescribed to me .but 1400 ppg of methamphetamine . Again I ask for this test and I drive a cdl . Impossible! The guardian told me that the judge would put my son in foster care unless I let him stay with my inlaws until drug test was disproved. We determined in a week that vicks inhalers was where this came from a legal l methamphetamine but the could not prove either way witch it was because of the small amount. the drug lab told myself and GAL that they could not prove that  had used illegal drugs so I ask for my son back . I took urine,  blood and hair test likely 20 times and all were negative but the judge refused to give my son back. My son was at my sister inlaw house for over 80 days before they decided to involve dss and put my son in a group home. The judge had been told numerous times by the gal that the lab could not prove I had used illegal drugs but dss and this corrupt judge put my son in there to be gang beaten and I believe raped anyway. There is so much more if you read the transcripts that shows clearly the judge and dss giving my wife a pass on every charge including a surprise urine test that she failed 10000 ppg methamphetamine and by then a weight loss of 30 lbs at least. Dss and judge telling me it was policy to keep a child for 6 months after a failed test . Again they could not prove illegal drugs on me. Still holding my son at over 5 months that excuse about to run out and dss put a new charge on me for child endangerment for him being in the group home I’d spent 50  k trying to get him out of. Kidnapped by dss and this judge . This new charge was based on the same drug test that the 1400 ppg of legal methamphetamine was on again and the judge convicted me again and sentenced my son to another  six months away from me. The same judge the same dss prosecutors Dennis gmerick accused me of poisoning my wife was the only way she had drugs in her at 10000 ppg methamphetamine . 5 different lab techs told me it was impossible for my wife to not know she was high on that much in a urine test . Yet this sex discriminating child abusing judge and dss gave my son back to his mother with no charges in less than a month.  There is not a court out side this county that won’t easily se a clear case of sex discrimination that has damaged a child for life myself for life and financial losses ill never recover from. And now my son hates his mother because he was gang beaten numerous times in helping hands and he heard his mother at a family meeting  say he could stay there until he changed his mind about her . with dss sandra jordan and ten other 5  couples than my son knew all his life offering to take him to their homes until it was settled to keep him safe. But dss let my wife decide to leave her only child there to be raped until the full year run out on the sentenced placed on me by judge gable. She belongs in prison for child abuse . Dennis gmerick certainly does. No  doubt they chose to destroy my child because of inlaw chris Johnson working for the county and dss prosecutor Amanda whittle I have witnes spent a hour during a sunday school class at first Baptist discussion how to help my wife win in court with the entire adult class. I will supena every person in that class if I proceed with a federal law suit. Do you believe all the adults at first Baptist will lie to keep Amanda whittle out of this?  I don’t . I also don’t want to ruin her career . I want Dennis gemerick charged and convicted of what he did to my son. Then ill belive I have saved the next little boy this corrupt cult decids to destroy.  Im not a unreasonable man. Ill be glad to talk about this . I love every child on this earth and I have slept 3 hours at one time since this happened over two years ago. I cannot believe that this kind of law breaking . Constitutional rights throw it out the window child destroyed damaged for life $300,000 gone my son and I virtually homeless compared to where we were can be ok with everyone in Aiken. My number is 803 439 3360. My wife made this happen to my child.she was willing to keep my child where he was being gang beaten daily for months. No I have no troubles understanding my son dont want to see his mother. Yet 7 different times in court and EVERYTIME the corrupt judge screamed at me and ask my why am I putting my son through this. Bullshit. The judge the attorneys the dss the guardian ad litem the therapist none of you worthless gutless representative of the court care one bit about the child you all care only about doing what all the corrupt system does . Help the female no matter how unfit in every way she is and extort from the man until he is homeless. I would have to be proven wrong to make me believe that any one of the family court legal system give a shit for the wellfare of a child..

  2. Hopeless says:

    Here is just one of the many letters just written today that my nephew can view from his own Facebook page. Mind you, my sister NEVER locked him out of his account, he currently has two accounts and he keeps writing these long winded letters filled with hatred about how my sister’s face should be placed in a meat grinder, please read I know it is long…but she could really use your help:
    To someone specific:
    seriously, you’re certifiably insane, aren’t you? You fight so hard to WIN, that you don’t stop to think about WHO you’re fighting against, or WHO you’re hurting! You’re too blind to see that you’re kicking your own ass, just like every other time. It’s getting boring.
    Congratulations, dillhole. You’ve succeeded in driving him yet FURTHER from you by locking him out of his facebook account!
    THANK YOU for handing me FREELY and ABUNDANTLY everything I would need to secure his attachment to ME, were I actually in the process of attempting to keep him from YOU.
    You ARE an idiot.
    He hates you now. NOT because I am a some mind control wizard of some sort, but because you just HAVE to beat ME, and HE is the prize. PATHETIC! He SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE “PRIZE” ALL ALONG! You should have been treating him well from BIRTH! HOW do you think you LOST him in the FIRST PLACE?
    Ugh. *sigh*, you’re HOPELESS. I TRIED to act as glue to hold you two together, but you’d f**k up a wet dream, so I’m powerless to be of assistance to you.
    Did you EVER stop to think that if you had been taking care of him like you SHOULD, not KEEPING HIM FROM ME, and providing him with an appropriate environment, that YOU’d STILL HAVE CUSTODY???
    6 PAGE DETAILED RULING, PEOPLE. I can show ANYONE the truth. The judges decision is MULTIPLE pages long; all you have to do is ask to see it.
    Here I am AGAIN, POSTING. Go ahead, print it out. Save me the paper and ink. I’m not afraid to post this because I’m RIGHT, and I’m HONEST.

  3. John says:

    Thank you for your article. Would you be so kind as to provide your feedback or opinion on this case?

    I have been attempting visitation with son ever since my ex-wife divorced me and had her boyfriend abduct and kidnap our son and flee with him and the ex-wife to Las Vegas, Nevada.

    I have always had visitation granted to me by the courts since the dissolution of marriage, however, the boyfriend and my ex-wife forbid it, regardless of all court orders. Even parenting plans made by my ex-wife’s’ very own criminal attorney, default judgments and orders to stay and contempt charges have had no affect on my being allowed visitation by my ex-wife or her boyfriend.

    It has gone so far as her boyfriend threatening my life if I attempt to call or visit my son and even kidnapping our son from school and fleeing with our child to San Diego, California during one scheduled visitation, and hiding at another location to forbid visitation during another scheduled visitation.

    They have no fear of the courts and they also know that I have exhausted my finances and cannot afford an attorney, especially an out-of-state attorney. I have a vague idea where my son is but no exact address or physical location of his residence or school and no telephone contact number.

    I have no idea how to get a judge to see that there is no possible alternative to allow my visitation other than requesting a change of custody before my ex-wife attempts to bring our son out of the country, which the judge said she would allow if I cannot come up with reasonable proof as to why our son should not be allowed international travel with his mother and her boyfriend.

    My ex-wife has a free attorney, by utilizing the false pretenses of victims’ assistance and abused spouse organizations, regardless of no proof of any such actions of abuse or being a victim. I have no legal counsel and have been only pleading with my ex-wife and the judge to allow my visitation with my son.

    I am beginning to wonder if I will ever see my son again. I was allowed to see him for the first time in four years on December 27, 2012. I thanked my ex-wife for allowing me her self-appointed one-hour supervised visitation with my son and begged her to please work out a parenting plan with me.

    Unfortunately, that caused her to get angry with me and she told me that she is denying my request and taking away my visitation because I “whined” about parenting time and I should not have any rights to be a parent because she is the custodial parent and that means that I have no rights as a father to our son.

    Any idea on what approach I can take? I am trying my best to show the judge in good faith that I only wish to be a part of my son’s life and not trying to do anything illegal by wanting to be a good father.

    1. Chris Watson says:

      Here in VA, if she refuses custodial time and removes him from out of state without your permission she is guilty of a Class 6 felony and you could petition the court for a change of custody.

      I’m shocked that no court, once it’s been demonstrated that she has no regard for the orders, wouldn’t grant you full custody.

      If you don’t have a lawyer, get to your local law library and start researching on how to do it yourself.

      1. enforcement order? NOT says:

        My husband is going through the exact same thing…courts do not care at all about a mother denying court ordered visitation. We pay so much child support that it took 3 yrs of BEGGING the ex when he actually had a phone number for her, but to no avail….NOW, we finally caught a break and managed to take her back for enforcement but she couldn’t be found for the “court date” notification(even though she finds that support check every week), so the judge just automatically rescheduled the hearing for a week later. She started calling the court house the day before the next hearing saying she just got a lawyer(we had filed and she had been served MONTHS earlier), and while the judge did not reschedule, he did allow her atty to have a call-in to tell the judge the lies she told him….my husband has now lost 2 days of work only to find the judge ignored the denied court ordered visitation and instead made it clear that he was blaming my husband(who was NOT given a chance to speak), blaming him for the 3 year laps??? She had a cop boyfriend in the small town she lives in harassing my husband, and even sitting in his patrol car watching the pick ups and drop offs….UNTIL we moved to another house on the other side of our town, she then decided he could see the kids as ordered but when she arrived for the drop off she demanded to know where “HER children” were going…my husband replied I will tell you where I live when you tell me where our children are living….she became enraged telling him he will never see the kids again and grabbed the youngest by the arm and tried to pull her out of the truck….I jumped out of the truck and told her calmly(so the kids couldn’t hear), to let the baby go and walk away from my truck right now….and she hasn’t allowed him to see them yet. He tries to call but she always says “they will have to call you back in 30 min”…when she calls back(we call her back) she will only let one kid speak and they are made very upset because she is whispering what she wants them to say…my husband tries to tell them they don’t have to repeat what their mom is saying but that seems to upset them more. The kids are 10 and under for goodness sake….so for the emotional well being of the kids, my husband has tried to plead with the ex to let him see the kids, but still trying to save up for an attorney to “enforce” what was already court ordered!!! She walked out of that hearing with nothing more that “have the lawyers figure out a new arrangement”…..she AS ALWAYS, is above the law in family court, while dads have NO rights…oh wait, she did tell him he has one right…she said the kids were given to her in the divorce, so now his(dad) only right to those kids is “the right to go to jail if [he] is ever late on that child support check”….so there you have it…she gets the majority of his money while he is then punished for not being able to raise the funds for a lawyer sooner…..She is supposed to let him see them tomorrow from 4pm to 7pm, but I already know she will not have the kids there, she will say they didn’t want to go and the courts will NOT DO ANYTHING AS USUAL!! BTW…she moves the kids in with every boyfriend, and lives in a one bedroom home…even though she says she makes more money than my husband ???? Hmmmmm Best interest of the children MY FOOT, we bout a 4 bedroom home with MY selling everything I own in an effort to get some help from a judge…didn’t work, the kids have never seen their rooms……

  4. mo says:

    my divorce is a nightmare.. my ex husband got sole custody but black mails me and txt threatens me just about every day he has recently not allowed me to speak to my daughters and will not allow me to see them.. i was granted visitations and phone calls every other day.. he is actin on child support which my boss sends in every month except this last month she hadn’t sent it in cause she changed accountances. so a double payment is being sent in this month.. he has gone as to threatin me to block me if i call… my daughters ages are 17 ,10,6.. i married young and stupishly at 16 yrs old my ex husband was 18 when we married i was also 3 months along… my 35 now and he is my worst night mare ever.. he is thee worst yet i try to be nice i need advice what i can i do to get him to understand they are my children too not all his and he has never worked in all 16+ yrs and still isn’t he gets foodstamps and sells them from time to time and he gets disbability $$ for anxiety and housing assistance and tanf cash assistance and the child support as well.. why am i the only one who feels she gettin fucked up in this deal.. help and advice much appreciated…
    im losing my mind.. i have worked all those yrs and to be screwed like hell by him is very very hurtful mind controling and emotional abuse .. HELP plz

  5. Omi F says:

    I normally don’t do this but came across this article and as a frustrated grandmother who has helped raise her Grandsons since Dad threw them to the curb… I felt compelled to post some thoughts.

    Some kids really DON’T want to go with the (non-custodial parent) and not because the custodial parent has alienated their affection, but because the non-custodial parent has done that all by themselves. There are good and bad parents, this is true and allowing “little Johnny” to dictate the household is one thing, but I think it’s irresponsible not to determine what the reasons are behind his discontent. To immediately call” BS” may not be in the best interest of the child who is struggling and refusing to go to the non-custodial parent’s house and in fact, it might be a dangerous and irresponsible stance to take.

    Every case is different but let’s not be so blind. There are rotten parents who care nothing about the emotional or physical needs of their children. There are parents who are so narcissistic, that even a child can sense it–The “encouraging” custodial parent doesn’t have it easy either, often times turning into a liar to the child who is forced to visit, and into the adult who can’t protect them or be their voice—and it’s a horrible, horrible thing to witness, both for the child but also the parent who feels helpless to fix it. But it is heart-wrenching to watch as a mother has to force her hysterical six year old to go with their father. It shouldn’t be that way. Now, we all know It’s not illegal to be a narcissist, to be uncaring, to be emotionally “vacant” or even mildly physically abusive. It’s sad to think that when the children have made it home alive, you sigh in relief.

    So when you call BS, be sure you’ve done due diligence for the CHILDREN. I agree that children should respect both parents and this should be encouraged. Have you ever watched while a child you love is forced into a situation that is causing horrible emotional and physical stress, watched while Mom lies to them just to calm them down while understanding that part of the problem is that they know she is lying and they know she has no power over the situation. Then a larger problem occurs, who then CAN they feel safe with? WHO is actually there to protect them? And god forbid, you don’t want to hash out all the reasons in court in an attempt to solve the problem because you fear someone will call “BS” on you. This “BS defense, i.e. “little Johnny doesn’t want to go” defense is not one that you should be so quick to use.

    Fathers, mothers, lawyers and judges need to find a way to always put the CHILDREN first. If a child is resisting it could be due to something as little as I want to spend time with friends during my school break in which case parents should be encouraged by the courts to be flexible. Kids were not built to be raised in two households, especially when there are long distances between the parents and even more so when they are little. But also, I worry that more severe cases like abuse or other trauma will be overlooked with this “defense.” Accusations of abuse or neglect are more often just being looked at as some tactic between disgruntled divorcees and not taken seriously at all. For instance, it is a well known that in certain district courts in FL, if a mother brings up any allegation of abuse (even if there is real abuse) the courts (certain judges) will award the custody to the father as a form of punishment. So the mothers are fearful to report or fight for the safety of the children, don’t report, and the children are put at risk every time they visit. This type of “justice” is forcing the mother to choose the lesser of two very horrible evils. Where is the justice for the child in this instance?

    As far as the children who don’t want to visit or who refuse— put yourself in a kid’s shoes– they didn’t ask to be pulled from one parent to another and although divorce has become a social “norm” and adults seem to move on from their ex, children have a more difficult time of it and the adults need to be adults and help them transition by truly listening, not taking offense and doing what they can to soften the blow, even if that means eating a little crow sometimes.

    1. Ginger says:

      I completely agree with the “one size fits all” concept of being the real B.S.!! In the ten years I was with my husband, I raised my daughter, his two daughters and our two sons. He was in and out of jail, to the extent of several injunctions ; eventually a life time injunction. To keep it as short as possible, he finally wound up in prison (years after our final separation). After TEN years of not being in their lives, he was tired of going to court to get his license back for non payment of child support, therefore, he hired an attorney to “eliminate” the arrears and modify current support through a parenting plan granting him time sharing credits. I’m not going to dwell on the dysfunction going on in his new home, however, two years ago he threw our 16 year old son up against the truck and held him by the throat, then laughed at him while he cried..as my sons peers looked on. That child has not been back to his home since then, he has since emotionally damaged our youngest sons relationship with him (now 15), now this child will not go to his home. I was told by the judge tgat there was no “proof” of abuse because I did not call the police (although my son did not tell me until I finally questioned the new “stepmom” a month later. So I put them in counseling and requested a GAL and they BOTH agreed that the boys should not be forced to go over there. I left alot out, but the point is, not every case is a cookie cutter senerio….the jealous, vindictive ex with an ax to grind. My boys 15 & almost 18, have only known their father for three years and he has destroyed any relationship all on his own, don’t be so quick to assume that NCP don’t FORCE the kids to visit just to reduce their child support obligations!! I realize there is probably alot of good ones out there, but my experience has been that MOST are not!!! The kids should never be forced into a situation they don’t want or shouldn’t be in..furthermore, if a child “for no reason” chooses the beach over visiting a parent, peehaps that parent needs to evaluate the situation and become more of a parent that their child can’t wait to see!!

      1. enforcement order? NOT says:

        WOW…SEE…YOU ARE further perpetuating the stereotype that fathers only want to see their kids in order to lower child support obligations…while I would love to point out that 75% of divorces are filed by women, or that MOST women deny court ordered visitation for the SOLE purpose of being entitled to MORE child support and tax free incomes like child tax credits(mom gets credit for dads financial support of the kids) …..I have to say to you, not ALL men are sorry, maybe you should be taking a good long look at yourself for choosing the man you’re speaking of as the FATHER OF YOUR KIDS. Take responsibility for your HALF of all of this! DON’T hurt kids of GOOD men like my ex husband and my current husband by saying men ONLY WANT TO SEE THEIR KIDS for the lower child support obligation (which has never been lowered for to any father I know FYI….) You should NOT be destroying other kids and dads by your BIASED views of dads…….I am a woman and I am ASHAMED of women like you!!
        Do some fact based research…not woman’s rights lies….father’s have NO rights to their children once the wife decides to leave him!!!! Family courts are gender bias and NEVER enforce visitation, family court DOES NOT enforce the visitation orders and family court DOES NOT care about the “BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD”…….If you chose such a BAD MAN to be the father of your kids maybe YOU should be the one paying for YOUR MISTAKES!! I know women like you….you are the CP who who uses parental alienation to make as much money as possible off of your kids! “stepmom”, you better get used to it lady, she is married to the kids father then SHE IS THEIR STEPMOM, no need for your spiteful ” marks ” GOT IT? DON’T like it? Too bad, you should have NOT had kids with him OR you should have stayed married to him!

        I AM A STEPMOM AND I LOVE MY KIDS!!!! And it is clear that I care about them and their future while their “mom” only cares about the guilt she can pile on the kids for the sake of MORE MONEY!!!!

        ONE MORE VERY IMPORTANT THING….almost ALL issues with the child not wanting to see the noncustodial parent(NCP) is a SIMPLE MATTER of PARENTAL ALIENATION brainwashing the children against the NCP….that is why the CP will ignore the visitation ordered’s giving HER the time to poison the children’s memories and love of their fathers….I grew up in this poison and now I am being FORCED to watch my husbands children suffer the same abuse…and family courts make sure it stays this way!!!

        1. Erin says:

          Wow “Enforcement Order NOT”

          I do not agree that Fathers only want to see their children more to lower the child support.. Why? Because it is a blanket statement about a group of people that absolutely does not apply. There may be some of them.. I don’t know any of them, but definitely not all or even most. But while you are so busy ripping the person that said it a new one, you go and throw out a blanket statement of your own regarding the CP! One that is equally as ridiculous. There certainly might be some cp that behave that way, it sure as heck is NOT most. So can we please just avoid the blanket accusations??? Especially after you read post after post of cases that the child doesn’t wish to visit the ncp that actually have VALID reasons for their feeling this way. It is just as disrespectful.
          Thank you

          ONE MORE VERY IMPORTANT THING….almost ALL issues with the child not wanting to see the noncustodial parent(NCP) is a SIMPLE MATTER of PARENTAL ALIENATION brainwashing the children against the NCP”

          1. Erin says:

            Oh and I wanted to add that as the cp, I absolutely would never allow my child to not go to the ncp for their visit because they would rather go to the beach. Frankly I would find this to be completely disrespectful to their Father and would NEVER allow that. BUT when the reason they won’t go is a valid one, then my first effort would be to get the child and ncp to talk it out. In my case the cp refused. I am not going to go into the whole thing again.. my post was back in 2010 and 2012 which explains it all. I am simply saying that if the ncp is not willing to try and fix the problem between them and the child, then what you do is go to court and req to modify the visitation to supervised till the child and ncp go to counselling and the 3rd party counselor concludes that the unsupervised visits should resume. Then if the child refused I would do everything in my power to make them go. But I certainly would NOT just dismiss their feeling out of hand until I had an objective party tell me it is safe to do so.

            In my own case the ncp filed contempt actions on me for not seeing his kids. Mind you, he never actually TRIED to see them in the 2.5 years except to call once 6 months after his last visit wanting to have our son come for Christmas and hang up on me when I told him our son refuses to see him again. I told him why. In short he demonstrated to our 9 year old the dance he would do at my funeral. Even worse because I have lupus and had been in and out of the hospital the whole year before. Actually in a coma for a week only a month before he did this. My son was seriously terrified of losing me and my ex was oblivious. The ncp response was that is was BS, our son was a child and had no rights. He was to go where he was told! He owed no explanations or apologies.

            Then we heard nothing from him for 2 more years till he filed for contempt on my part. The action filed simply stated he had visitation and had not seen them in 2 1/2 years.

            Well we went to court. I filed a motion to amend them to supervised till he went to counselling with him. The judge agreed and after hearing about all of it (and there was more that I never went into) she ordered him to go to counselling with him and supervised till the counselor said it was time to resume unsupervised. The contempt case he filed was dismissed by the other judge.

            He refused to go to the counselling. I actually took my son anyway because I felt it wasnt healthy for him to hate his father like he did. After about a year and a half he decided to TRY seeing him again. He went and they were all (ncp lives with his parents) much nicer to my son. For a while. Now the ncp is just as he was.. not interested in bothering and has not even called his son for a year including his birthday.

            So please don’t paint all cp with the same brush and lump us in with cp that practice parental alienation. I

        2. Jonathan says:

          Ok enforcement order? NOT,
          I was with you through most of your statement. But you completely ruined your credibility with the last part. You talked about the negatives of stereotype and the need to do some “fact based research”. Then you said, “almost ALL issues with the child not wanting to see the noncustodial parent(NCP) is a SIMPLE MATTER of PARENTAL ALIENATION brainwashing the children against the NCP”. Where are your “facts” for this? Exactly how many of the millions of NCP’s do you know? The truth is….BOTH parents play a role in getting married, having children and the divorce. If after the divorce, the kids are alienated from the NCP, then it probably is still BOTH parents. “Some” of the CP’s poisons the mind of the kids against the NCP. “Some” NCP’s don’t work hard enough to keep their kids minds clean. Yes, it stinks that its going to be harder. But NCP’s don’t have the children as much, so they have to work harder. Simple math people. It is what it is. Then there is the issue of Child Support. Yes the CP’s make out like bandits. Tax free income that the NCP has to pay the taxes on. I agree….IT SUCKS!!! But once again it is what it is. But now research what it costs to raise a child to adult and then compare it to what is paid by NCP’s. Not even half. I’m a firm believer, that when kids get older, they figure it out. Their memories clear up. They learn about manipulation and dishonesty…. The truth comes clear. Yeah, as CP’s and NCP’s you lose their youth and the fun times of their growing up waiting for this time. But, never forget that…YOU,ME,US…THE PARENTS, because of your/our inability to stick to the vows we made as married couples or partners, our children were robbed of a childhood with two parents who love each other and provide a happy family unit. The kids will always be the biggest losers in this battle….the sad thing is….they don’t even get to fight for what they want or need. Give them a voice. Good or Bad.

    2. Angela says:

      I absolutely agree, my grandson hates going to his dads, he
      crys evertime and when he comes home he tells me he doesnt get to
      eat much cuz they have 4 other kids and dont have
      a lot of food, he gets sick everytime hes there. His dad and his
      girlfriend fight all the time so that upsets mygrandson
      he starts throwing up. Its so sad that my grandson gets sick
      everytime hes there. These so called courts dont make these
      decisions for the kids, they dont have the best interest
      for the children, and me being the grandma find it really
      hard to have to see him go overthere.
      half the time they have 4 children there and one teenager
      that is actually 12 or 13, and one ofthe children has down cyndrome
      I really dont see this being a safe home for any of the kids
      I think a child shouldn’t be forced to go to a parents houze if they
      dont want to no matter the age.

    3. cindi garcia says:

      This post is the most fair and realistic post thus far. The kids first off lived with the two adults who were responsible for their life. Who first promised to love each other and then this child (ren). Obviously, they were selfish enough, for whatever reasons not to keep the first promise and now are turning the child’s world upside down. It could simply be going to one or another parent’s house is too damn stressful. Adults are not careful what they are saying around the children. The parent they are away from might be slandered by the parent and other adults. It makes the child feel disloyal. I know my grandchildren are in this position now. The non-custodial parent promised and was court ordered during the divorce proceedings with a restraining order to refrain from slandering the custodial parent in hearing range of the children. However, now that the divorce is final, the slander has begun. The non-custodial parent has said horrible things about the other parent and told the children not to tell. Of course, the youngest did. The middle one began to cry because they weren’t suppose to tell and now they were going to get in trouble, the oldest one began to yell and confront the parent about what was told by the other parent. All on their 2nd day of school. The children are in excel classes. What is to be said when they began to fail? Why didn’t they do their homework? The oldest missed school the next day because he never slept the night before. PEOPLE WAKE UP! The non-custodial grandmother is in the middle of it too, asking the children which grandmother do they love the most! Seriously? This speaks volumes of what our children are being left to deal with today. Screw your own lives up! JUMP OFF A BRIDGE! This is EMOTIONAL CHILD ABUSE. CUSTODIAL OR NON- Most often the marriage was over way before the divorce came and never should have happened at all.

  6. Jillian says:

    Hi
    Although I am a grown woman and my visitation with my father is no longer an issue, it pains me to read that you feel a child should “have to” visit the non custodial parent.
    My father did not physically abuse me but he never behaved like a dad. He showed up when he wanted and then had me sit in a bar having a soda while he drank the day away. He passed out in a movie theater one day and I watched the same movie 3 times since the ushers could not wake him up.
    When he remarried I “was just another kid” along with his new wife’s two daughters. There was no special connection with my father at all.
    As I grew older , he divorced and married a 3rd time. He began to tell me how dumb I was and how much I reminded him of my mom.
    Long story short…I didn’t want to visit him but I “had” to and my mother did as the court instructed. No one in the court cared what I thought or felt. I couldn’t play with my friends or on my softball or bowling teams when I was with him.
    It’s sad that you take the “bullsh&@t” attitude towards the children and the and the custodial parent.
    Try to put yourself in the mind of these children. I wish that you had some “life” experience with divorce and children. Each case is unique.
    Try to have a little sympathy for the children. You are being very foolish. Perhaps you should change careers since this current one does not appear to be the right fit.

    1. redbear762 says:

      Jillian,

      I sympathize with your situation – he sounds like a crappy parent.

      For those of us who have had to suffer through PAS and hostile influences on our kids, the call for a kid to see or not see a parent needs to be outside of the call of the child; because he was told by his mother to not see me 4 years ago, my 17 year old namesake and favorite child is utterly lost to me now and the grief, pain, and loss I feel when I think about Ian is more then I can stand. The call to let custodial parents decide who the kid sees or doesn’t see *is* utter bullshit.

    2. cindi garcia says:

      Absolutely agree! Maybe watch a movie 3 times.

  7. EW says:

    As the custodial parent of four, I resent the “bullshit” my children have to go through every other weekend when I pack them up (at my expense since their father is thousands of dollars arrears on court ordered child support since re-prioritizing his life for pregnant wife and her three children) for the journey across state to visit the NCP simply because I do the right thing and follow court orders. It pains me when my teen daughter comes home to report she is expected to babysit her stepmother’s children so she can sleep, read, and build her direct sales business while their father does things with the woman’s children. She doesn’t want to go, resents it, and I still make her go~ all the while struggling to pay the bills without support because “Daddy” has a new family.
    And yes, I am taking him to court, for what it’s worth.

    1. cindi garcia says:

      Make sure you get a modification that she is not a FREE babysitter!

  8. My point wasn’t that there aren’t certain parents who don’t merit having visitation with their children. My point is that it’s up to the courts–and not the custodial parent or the child–to make that determination.

  9. Mitzy says:

    It is up to the courts? Yes, because everyone should have a life plan decided in ten minutes before a judge and spend 10,000.00 to have people that know nothing about you or your situation decide what is “best for the children”.

    PLEASE. There is no justice in the justice system. It is all about who is the better or more convincing liar, has the most money, or the best ie more aggressive or capability of manipulating the court docket, attorney or how much “time” is left on overbooked dockets, due in large part the push in our society for NO determination as to what is right or wrong, ethical or unethical and attempt to uncover “truth” that really IS in the best interest of a child, not an immature, self serving “all about me” mother or father.

    Apparently many individuals are “serial” marriage malcontents who procreate then divorice and then neglect the offspring type of folks. These situations are over looked as being part of the problem. Many many of these so called “best interest parents” are on their fourth and fifth go rounds with this cycle of life described above and no one even checks as to if they are ALREADY contemptous of a former “divorce” or being a “repeat” make a family, abandon a family and don’t support mold.

    Clearly . This is pompus behavior on the part of the court system that is overwhelmed cause everyone is thinking of themselves, and how to turn justice into a money market profit producing system, like our political system.

    You, sir, are very naive, and clearly part of the problem. Anyone can reproduce. It takes much more to be a parent….It takes much more introspect of self, to include family court, to be serving the “best interest of children”. This pompus coming from a system that believes murders, pedophiles, and wife abusers have the same rights as those who do NOT do these things.

  10. Mitzy says:

    Malcontent manipulators or the serial marriage/divorice (when it isn’t all about them) procreate divorice type know full well how to 1. Keep their “backgrounds” secret from potential (usually younger) next wives/husbands. 2. Are very familiar with how to manipulate (yes, even the high courts) 3. Manipulate weaknesses in the judical system 4. Wouldn’t comply with “rules” irregardless of the punishment (wake up there is none, not even for perjury) in family court
    5. Will take “family money” right out of the mouths of babes to be able to “walk” from responsibilites of life and parenthood. 6. Turn into indegents until other just give up and decide the money (or credit) they have remaining is best spent ON the children, than in the court system.

    These “serial” types clearly know this…and NONE of this behavior is even remotely in the interest of children, to include a responsible parent even thinking to teach a child right from wrong in regards to responsible behavior in society, as that might cause them to lose their children all together.

    And one wonders why “abused” women/or men of which there are far too many…….stay with the abuser? You know it is the keep your enemies close…….mentality of survival.

    No fault/no consequence societies equal anarchy. We need to wake up and fast as patterns are being set that are NOT in the interest of our society as these victim children of the system are the future of our society.

  11. Mitzy says:

    The biggest injustice is the cost of justice.

  12. Mitzy says:

    The reality is documentation is key. So we are told, those of us who truly do know what is “fair” or just MUST be proven, not just heresay.

    Unfortunately, once in the system NO one, CARES about your documentation. NO one. No child has a voice that isn’t stiffled by the system. If they voice, they have been coached. Ever hear “out of the mouths of babes?”
    Abuse breeds abuse and if we send children into “who cares about you” situations of ANY kind…like on airplanes to far places and homes they do not know….we are abusers. Kids are NOT more resilent than adults. That is a lie….what adults would never inflict on themselves we as a matter of rule inflict on kids, through the family court.
    Is the world upside down?

    1. Angela says:

      I agree, mygrandsonhasto go intoahome where their are 4 other
      children, he absolutly hates going. His fathers girlfriend is
      the controlling one. The father is hardly there andthe courts
      say that is his right, I call bullshit on that, these courts are
      fucked up, the law cant understand why amother would love to
      take her child and leave the state. U want to protect your child
      and you are the one that gets persecuted.

  13. Justice says:

    I totally agree with Mr. Foreman. (keep in mind he also states if no abuse is involved). I have been through this personally and now with my step-son. The courts made the right decision for my parents in the 70s. They had me stay with my father (and I am female) and looking back, this was the best decision. I have a wonderful relationship with both my parents now, and am a responsible adult. I feel if I was put with my mom at the time, my life would have been different and may not have turned out as positive.

    Now with my step-son, if the courts had not stepped in, we would NEVER get to see him. His mother hates his father and that was her main reason to pull some of the things she has. She has tried to take away our vacation time, our Christmas time, some of our weekends. She has said that my step-son doesn’t want to spend vacation time with us and tries to use that as an excuse to keep him away. Why would she have a 7 year old at the time make these decisions? She always states that his step-dad is a better dad and she is very hateful. My husband pays child support every month (for those who may think that is the issue). She takes him back about every other year to try and get more money. Thank God the courts could see right through what she was trying to do and give us time to spend with him. He has a wonderful time with us and we have no problems when he is with us. It is the custodial parent that we had the problem with. I think this is Mr. Foreman’s point.

    1. Shebraqtynat says:

      Well here’s my 2 cents. I challenge all the non-custodial parents to simply ask their children how they feel. My wife’s ex refuses to even broach the subject. He already knows the answer. Thus the good question is not the foolish questions of Mr. Forman. Comparing visitation to having sex with your boy/girl friend…please. Yet, comparing it to school…very good. Yes we force our children to do a lot of things. Many of the things Mr. Foreman mentioned are things we have someone else willing to work with us or some kind of proof to back up why it is a good course of action. For example : GO TO SCHOOL – how many things are published about the benefits of school. The teachers will usually work with a sincere parent who wants to “force” their kids into school. And the same can be said about vegetables, brushing your teeth…etc. However, with a non-custodial who is just frustrating a child ( not abusing ), denigrating an ex mate or simply not parenting, cannot possibly be in the best interest of the child. So, Mr. Foreman, before you throw your questions at the custodial parent, how about you ask the non-custodial this one question – Have you discussed your child’s wishes about visitation? I guarantee most non-custodials avoid asking because they now the answer and they know they caused it to happen. Tell the non-custodial who is danger of losing or having their visitation reduced to have heart to hearts with their children. Even if a custodial is “poisoning their minds”, the non custodial can work hard by applying an antidote with good communication with the child. Short phone calls, little text messages expressing love, little note stuck in their pocket with 5.00 for an ice cream cone or any other small expression of love. Unfortunately, the non custodial wants to get even with the custodial just as much as the vice versa. And left as victims are the children. LET THEM SPEAK AND LISTEN.

      1. Oh please says:

        Maybe the non-custodial parent doesn’t ask because they know the custodial parent tries to brainwash the child due to anger/bitterness towards the non-custodial parent. Why give a young child that type of responsibility? I am a custodial parent and my husband is a non-custodial parent and I have never seen such BS when it comes to the custodial parent. We did have to go to court and still at times have to fight for what we already have. The child has a great time with his father. The mother is very bitter and angry, so in this case and what Mr. Foreman is stating is that if it were up to the custodial parent, we would NEVER see the child. Everything is more important, we hear all the excuses. It is horrible what some custodial parents will say to their children. Wait till that child grows up and wonders why their other parent wasn’t around.

        1. Shebraqtynat says:

          The NCP can and should still ask the children how they feel. What will it hurt? Maybe there has been some brainwashing…I feel most CP have done this. But without any communication how will the NCP know? False accusations can be overcome with time and sacrifice. Maybe conceding to your child’s wishes might be the best course of action. When they get older they will be better capable of seeing the big picture. Now I know that last statement won’t sit well with most, if not all, NCP. But consider the alternative. Your battle will be with your children. At least that is how your children will perceive it. Will that draw them closer to you or will it in some twisted way support the CP claims? Young children just can’t separate fact from fiction that well. How about talking to the child and apologizing for anything you may, or only perceived, to have done wrong. Find a happy middle ground. For example, the NCP has visitation every other weekend. The child has been truly brainwashed by the CP and now wants NO visitation. NCP says, “I’m sorry you feel that way. Some of the reasons why you feel this way are my fault. (true statement as all divorces involve mistakes on BOTH sides. If you feel that that is not true….then your probably right and YOUR the problem!) Can you please give me a chance? You only have to see me once a month instead of twice a month.” After that…BE A BETTER PARENT. Even if you are already a good parent, strive to be even better in some way. Not gifts. Not money. TIME TIME TIME. ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION. SACRIFICE SACRIFICE SACRIFICE. COMMUNICATION COMMUNICATION COMMUNICATION!!! Who knows what will happen. But maybe the child will see you in a different light as it continues to grow up and mature. In time, it’s possible they will be willing to go back to the original agreement. This is just a suggestion. And considering the comments of most NCP on this site show that the “force your will on the child” way is not working, why not try a different approach. If you don’t want to try something different and insist on continuing to do it the same old way….well then I can see why your divorced.

          1. Marc says:

            Shebraqtynat,

            Sorry, but your comment makes zero practical sense. Your advise, to a NCP whose child is being poisoned against them, is to give the child what they want and play into the hands of the alienator and maybe the child will figure it out in the years ahead?

            Sorry, no way!! No parent who really cares about their children will abandon them to the alienator (abuser). Your idea is to abdicate your roll as a parent. We know what is best for children. Do you really think a 6 or a 7 year old is in a position to know what is best for them? Do you really think they are able to look at the complete picture, the implications for their future and mental health, and make a choice to cut ties with one of their parents? Of course not!!!

            The NCP does NOT bow out of their children’s lives. The NCP whose children are being brainwashed against them continues the visit and continues to show in their day to day interactions with their children that the alienating parent is lying about them. If the NCP runs away then it validates everything that the alienating parent has said and leaves the children alone with a CP whose is abusive in their alienation of the NCP.

            In your advice to NCP to be a “better parent” you are working off the assumption that the NCP is not already a good parent. Often that is FAR from the case and puts the responsibility for the alienation not on the person doing the alienation, but the parent who is the victim of it. You mentioned “Time, attention, sacrifice, communication”. The problem with that is that the alienating parent is seeking to remove time, attention and communication from the non alienating parent. Your advise is a bit odd considering your advise at the beginning of your screed was for the NCP to cut and run. Which is it? Attention, sacrifice, communication or cut and run?

            Many parents in this situation has sacrificed a lot. Your intimation is that they have not. Having been the victim of parental alienation, let me tell you there is a lot of sacrifice involved. My boys are now 8 and 9 and I have been sacrificing mentally and emotionally for years because of what the CP is doing!!

            Your children will NOT see you in a different light if you cut and run and leave them to their abuser. Very often the only picture they have of a normal life is with the NCP because the alienator is so mentally dysfunctional.

            Fundamentally this is about two parents, one of which is abusing the children and trying to alienate the children from their other parent. Many of these issues pre-date the divorce and separation from the children. We divorced because we saw how many issues the ex has. The divorce, more often than not, causes the parent, who is often mentally ill, to act even worse.

            What is needed for society, the courts and mental health care providers to realize what is going on and it for what it is, it is ABUSE! These parents are injuring their children no differently if they savagely beat them. Physical scars and pain eventually fade. The mental and emotional trauma these people inflict on their children lasts a lifetime.

          2. Angela says:

            I agree, mygrandsonhasto go intoahome where their are 4 other
            children, he absolutly hates going. His fathers girlfriend is
            the controlling one. The father is hardly there andthe courts
            say that is his right, I call bullshit on that, these courts are
            fucked up, the law cant understand why amother would love to
            take her child and leave the state. U want to protect your child
            and you are the one that gets persecuted.

        2. cindi garcia says:

          the non-custodial parents are just as capable of brainwashing too! a shitty parent is a shitty parent!

      2. Joan Bailey says:

        You have no idea of the power of the manipulating parent. Unless you’ve walked in our shoes, don’t offer simplistic and non-realistic advice.

        1. Erin says:

          Joan..

          While my own situation is absolutely NOT a case of me brainwashing my son to not want to see his father. That responsibility is completely on the NCP by his actions and treatment of our son. The fact is he was absent and when there abusive.

          BUT that being said in my brother’s case where he had not seen his son it absolutely was a case of the cp brainwashing. We know this because he also adopted her son from a previous marriage, where come to find out she did the same thing with him. But he told my brother all the things she did.. and the one that always loses is the child in that situation. I have not laid eyes on my nephew for 10 years. He finally did come to visit after he was 19. But he was terrified of her finding out because she would disown him if she did. So he not only lost his father, but his grandmother and his entire family on his father’s side.. It is a tragedy when the cp IMO takes her anger out on the child.

          Where I believe my brother went really wrong was he allowed her to win. Because the fact is when you only have one parent there to do the talking, then that is all you have to believe. I understand why he let her win.. but the one who lost was not just my brother losing his only son.. his only son lost having a father.

  14. Fritz J Ethridge says:

    Dear Sir,

    I completely disagree with you. You seem to assume that simply because someone provided an or a sperm that they are good parents. If you don’t like someone, do you think that the courts should order you visit them. If someone makes you feel uncomfortable, brow beats you, harasses you, and provokes you, should the court determine that you have to spend the next 15 months of your life under their yoke until you could divorce them. My grandson, who has spend his entire life with us, plans to do just that if the court is so foolish as to give him into the care of a father who has never been there for him and his third wife, a women only seven years older than him who just in the past month got off of probation for driving under the influence of marijuana. Both of which are out of work, and living in my younger brother’s house. I think that you would probably be much kinder to yourself than you seem to imply that you would be toward child. I

    1. I don’t “assume that simply because someone provided an or a sperm that they are good parents.” I assume they are a parent and as such have a responsibility to support that child–a responsibility that the state will incarcerate them for not meeting. Given that responsibility, such parents also have the right to a relationship with the child until the state (i.e., the courts–and not the other parent) decides that relationship is too damaging to the child to preserve.

      One hears a lot from woman unhappy with the parenting skills of the baby daddies they so recklessly conceived a child with. Few of my out-of-wedlock custody/visitation cases involve children who were deliberately conceived and most of them involve children conceived from unprotected sex. The law is simply no longer designed to protect mothers from these consequences of irresponsible procreation. In the past it was, but the consequences of that system, which I have blogged about here, are no longer consequences our society is willing to tolerate.

      1. Stephanie says:

        Um… so only women are responsible for unplanned pregnancies, huh?

        Yep, you’re a douchebag. Thanks for confirming that. Phew… I almost took this shit seriously…

        1. redbear762 says:

          @Stephanie, take the time to actually read what George is writing and the context of the conversation and you *might* actually learn something. The primary issue here is kids who say ‘I don’t want to see daddy’ because the mothers hold some vindictive streak against the men they had kids with.

          My POV, not George’s:

          Given the woman’s movement over the last 40+ years and it’s Feminist chant of ‘her body, her choice’ and the wide availability of contraception, it could be strongly argued that the 90/10 burden on contraception IS on the woman today.

          Ergo, if a woman is irresponsible enough to have a child out of wedlock because she refused to use birth control then blames the man for the pregnancy and convinces the kid that ‘daddy is a bad man’ so the kid refuses to see him, that’s bullshit. That’s a mother using her kid as a proxy for her anger.

          1. Yep says:

            “if a woman is irresponsible enough to have a child out of wedlock because she refused to use birth control then blames the man for the pregnancy”… blah blah blah… Why men are refusing to create and use birth control themselves? Meaning, why don’t they swallow pills, wear patches and so forth? You made it sound like it is only woman who is responsible for preventing a pregnancy. And the guys are so innocent; they have nothing to do with it. Are women holding a gun to their head and saying “give me you sperm, now. I want to get pregnant, and if do not impregnate me I’ll shoot you”? You sure know how to joke.

          2. Erin says:

            lol.. sorry Redbear762, You lost me when you chastized Stephanie for not reading the post “George” posted! The person that you are actually referring to is GREGORY FOREMAN..You either have boxing on your mind or you are really hungry for a burger made on a grill! I thought maybe at first it was just a typo but then you referred to him again as George.. lol

            Sorry but every once in a while a little humor is needed.

      2. Shebraqtynat says:

        So…can the child protect his/herself from the irresponsible procreation by having a say? I agree, the custodial should not be the one to make this decision or push it onto the court. But, the children need to be heard. The court does not exercise its ability to bring in secondary counsel or a Guardian Ad Litem enough. And that is a shame. Sorry, the court system is more of a fast food restaurant instead of fine dining. The kids foot the bill for fine dining but end up with a crappy cheeseburger.

        1. deb says:

          My ex of 20 years, left my son and I in excruciating debt, had been seeing a coworker for over a year, I was going thru breast cancer at the time, resulting in a mastectomy and 2 more surgery to complete after he had left, my child who is14 now went through all of this .

          I have two adult children from a previous marriage, and 4 grandchildren, who my son and I have no contact with, my daughter considers me dead and my older son is not involved, nothing wrong until my ex left, my entire family won’t talk to me, but my ex gets to and his family are included in all family functions, including my own family,

          I am the custodial parent, I encourage 14 year old to see his dad, but he chooses not to be involved in this disturbing situation, he has explained to his dad, why, but dad refuses to hear him.

          I feel forced, as well as our son, we have to go to court, again, all because my ex has to prove he’s the controller, and “because he can”.

          There is no justice, in the justice system for a child, only alot of pain, confusion, and force, over a situation, that should not have ever occurred!!

          So, tell me this, how can a court decide, ” What is in the best interest of the child”, when they don’t even know the history or why????? “Because they can”!!!

  15. Amanda T says:

    I found your article interestingBut, I would have to agree with the numerous comments that say that we should not be so quick to call this “bullshit” when the custodial parent says that the child(or children as in my case ) do not want to go. yes we make kids do things they dont want to do all the time…eat veggies, brush their teeth so on and so forth, but I think that we should not be comparing these things to a bond a child feels with a parent.Pleasehear me out..I have been going through a horrible, nasty custody situation for over 6 years now. I am the custodial parent, I live in VA and I have 2 sons. My ex is a major in the military and feels he does not get enough time with his children. when we first seperated he had free run of the house and could come and go as he pleased, and visit the boys whenever he wanted. Then, my sons started returning upset, saying that dad was telling them mommy was going to die because she was an evil person, no one liked mommy…you get the picture. So, we got scheduled visitation set up and a Guardian ad litem. But, my sons were still returning upset from visits . well I did everything I was supposed to do and told therapists, the guardian, his command, the chaplin, ACS…I did everything I could because I knew something was not right. nobody would listen to me and my fears for my children were pushed aside as,”a vindictive ex wife trying to get back at her ex.” So, I countinued, per the guardians advice, to force my sons to go with their father. I watched them cry hysterically when they went with him, vomit in the car as they left, and eventually they both became suicidal threatening to kill themselves if they had to go with him again. (that was finally when the courts thought..gee maybe something is wrong.)as it turns out, the boys were too afraid to tell anybody about the emotional and physical abuse they were having to endure when they went to visit their father, because they knew there was another visit scheduled 2 weeks away and were afraid of what he would do to them if they did say something. I understand what you are trying to say, but please, please try to hear my side of this. I cannot tell you how helpless I felt as a parent, to know that something was wrong when my kids went to visit their father…and not be able to help them. to be told over and over again that “he has rights too.” Children are young and they need direction…but they are not stupid and they know when something is off. Thankfully, my sons are 13 and 14 now and are speaking up for themselves and people will actually listen..but I cant help but feel sorry for them, and all the years of their early childhood that were lost because the courts said they had to go.

    1. Angela says:

      Totally agree, the children shouldnt be forced to see the ncp, I think it makes for
      hard feelings when the kids grow up. A child should only
      go to the ncp if they want to without force

  16. Andreas says:

    I find the argument valid the lawyer presents. I’m possibly facing this exact situation. I pay my child support, and my ex feels that it’s not enough. She doesn’t work, and she wants more from me. She can work, and she chooses not to. Now she feels that since I won’t help support her that my rights as a father no longer apply. She is refusing to let me see my daughter. Telling me any excuse she can think of, and the line of the child doesn’t want to see you is starting to become the excuse of choice. I talk to my daughter and when asked the question does she want to visit me she always says yes and I miss you daddy. I’m building up my documentation, unfortunately I live in a different state than my daughter. Next scheduled parenting time I will fly to the state where the mother is and I will get the police involved. If that doesn’t work I will drag her to court. I know that the state would do the same thing to me if I stopped paying child support. It’s not the mothers decision to curb my rights. I know all the custodial parents on this site have the right to financial support for the child. However I also postulate I have a right to visitation. If I’m a bad influence on my child that is the custodial parents responsibility to curtail my visitation rights thru the courts. As it is my responsibility to support my child. It’s not the custodial parents right to deny the other parent visitation without the courts consent. I know there are bad parents out there, and I know that the courts are a pain to deal with.

  17. Marie says:

    This is long but is will explain why I am one that decided to keep my kids away from my ex at a certain point and time. It did not start out that way. I am a mother of 3 who divorced when my youngest was just 8 mos. I tried very hard to make life for my kids as if they had 2 parents with a good relationship. He was invited to their school events. Birthdays etc.But he was having none of that. For some reason he could not seperate his anger with me from the kids.
    He got my children every other weekend and every wed. in the beginning. We had a child with epilepsy and every medical bill I ever handed my ex was thrown back in my face. I would meet him at the designated spot only to have him accuse me of not being there when I was. Only because he didn’t see me. He would get out threaten to hit me, yell at me and when I got back into my vehicle to get away from him he kicked my van door in and did $800.00 dollars worth of damage. This was back in 1994. I was constantly being accused of child abuse by him. I found out by my 2 oldest children that he was sitting them down and interrogating them about me and recording everything they said. I tried very hard to tell my children that what went on at his home was his buisness and what went on at mine was mine, unless it was harmful to them I did not want to hear them complain about him. However my children, especially my son had valid complaints. My ex would leave my youngest locked in a room and when she had to go to the bathroom he would not get her out to let her go. My son would get her out and take her to the bathroom. She was almost 2. One day my son got her out and put her on her dads bed and let her pee on the bed. My ex’s wife would drop my children off at the library when they were only 8. 6 and 2 and leave them there while she shopped. When I found out I hit the roof, but yet I was the one being accused of being abusive. Still I tried to make things work.
    I did eventually become friends with her, but mostly because when my kids visited their father for the summer I would send them presents and I sent her kids presents as well. I never want a child to feel left out.
    I moved the kids to a Dallas metroplex a year later to be around my parents. His anger was duly noted. However I made sure I always met him the only thing that changed was the wed visits. I invited him to the kids concerts and birthdays but mind you he never ever came to any not even when we lived close. I was mom and dad to my kids even when we were married.
    My oldest and youngest had medical issues and when my ex came to the hospital the only way he would stay is if I left. I was not about to leave my children. Once he even decided that he would bring his new girl friend to meet my youngest when she was in the hospital for menigitis. I did pitch a fit because she was sick and it was not the place or time. When my son had surgery they had to cut his pants off and his underwear off. I had to leave my car at a different hospital and rode with my son in the ambulance to the childrens hospital. I asked my ex if he would go buy my son some underwear and because of that he got mad and left. When I say left I mean left and went back to his home in Gatesville.
    When my son was 14 my ex married for the 3rd time and this woman was crazy.He met her on the net and married her 3 mos later. She accused my son of trying to poison her by putting bleach in her insulin. My son called me crying to come get him because his dad had the police interrogate him. They threatened him that if anything happened to anyone in that family even if my son wasn’t there they would put my son in prison. I told my ex I was coming to get my kids and he didn’t want me to. I told him they were not staying there in that hostile situation. I did not let my kids go back to see him until this situation was resolved. We went to court. I proved that if you put bleach in insulin it turns it orange, so for her to inject herself with orange insulin means she is plain stupid or lying. I did alot of investigating on this woman and with the help of my lawyer we found that she had shot herself in the stomach and thrown herself down a flight of stairs. Yet my ex believed this woman over my son. My ex decided he wanted custody of my children and was trying to do so when we went to court over this issue. The judge told him he needed counseling and his wife was suicidal. He divorced her 3 mos later. The judge also ordered him to come to Dallas to see his kids. No he did not live far away, only a couple of hundred miles. However my kids did not want to see him. But I did make them see him for a time. After awhile he just stopped coming. Even before this happened though he was accused of beating my son in the front yard and I stood up for him with CPS and telling them he didn’t do that. I found out that his wife (3rd) at the time was the one that accused him but she called in stating it was me that accused him. Why would I clear him If I accused him I asked him.
    Then he told the courts he was disabled got his child support lowered to $250 a month and then went back to work after that. I didn’t have the money to take him back to court.

    My youngest did decide that she wanted to start seeing him again and as soon as he got her for the summer one year when she was 12 he filed for custody of her immediately. It took me 6 mos to get her back. During that time he had her calling me every name under the sun, and I could never talk to her without him being right there on the phone and btw he was on his 4th wife by now. He had her calling her Mom and created a hostile relationship between my daughter and me. When I got my daughter back, she told me about a role over accident that she had been in. I could not figure out why she was so afraid to be in a car. He told her not to tell me. When she told me I was on my way to take her for a visit. I stopped, called him and told him we were not coming even though we were almost there. If he could not tell me important things like that he was not a responsible parent. He got her on the phone and told her that she betrayed him. He has never been the same with her since. How do you tell your child they betrayed you. He is the adult not her.
    She did try go to live with him at the age of 17 with him promising her a car. Once again he had her calling me names and when she graduated from high school he kept me from coming. I raised my kids and he had her this one year and he thinks he raised her. While she was there he told her that she was not his child, as soon as she graduated he took her off insurance and took the car away and kicked her out of the house. How do you do that to your child. She went from home to home for awhile until I found her. I brought her home and she stayed for a little while but went to her dads for a visit with her sister and decided she wanted to stay with her sister for a bit. Her sister decided to move to colorado and my youngest decided to move in with a guy. She ended up leaving there and coming home but now she is Pregnant. I read a note she wrote the other day to her baby. She says now she can have someone who will love her for her. My poor baby is hurting so bad and I can’t make her understand that I am always there for her. She is not making good decisions but I know that I am not what she wants. She wants her Dad to love her.
    So did I make the right decision in not letting her be around her dad from time to time. Yes and I wish I had kept him away from her for good, because all he has done is hurt her and my son. The only one he has anything to do with is my oldest daughter. He gives her anything she wants, but she plays him. It makes me angry that she plays him. I cannot give them everything they ever wanted or needed except for love, and I don’t buy my childrens love. I am honest and true with them.

  18. Valerie says:

    Thank you for calling it what it is. My husband was a young dad and tried very hard in court to keep visitation with his son. His son was 5 when we started dating, 10 when we married. I always looked at him like a son and I think that is why after we had our daughter it hurt so bad when he didn’t want to come over anymore. When he was 13 and our daughter was 1 his mother became unreasonable with my husband always making excuses why his son couldnt come over. Not answering the phone for days to avoid planning a pick up time. Being out of town on fathers day the one holiday that should be always for the dad. Yes she is married with 2 other children but it is his day. Things got so bad and the son would get so upset with his dad for giving his mom a hard time they both started to threatening him. Saying ” go away or I’ll tell the lawyer things! ” what things????? Then one day she starts texting my husband with Tell your wife she better never hit my son again. I was crushed. I couldn’t believe my step son would go along with that, but he loves his mom and he will do anything to make her happy. We haven’t seen him in almost 3 years we now have a 5 year old and a 18 month old. He is now calling asking for a car and insurance, and the mom is calling us cheep because we can’t afford it. The court didn’t care about my husbands rights it felt like my husband could be threatened and treated like nothing because he was the non-custodial parent. All they seemed to care about was how much money they can take but give nothing in return. All he wanted was to not lose that communication, keep seeing him and maybe things would turn around. She wouldn’t even bring him to the therapist we payed for. The court asked her why he didn’t go and she reply “he didn’t want to.” At this point our only wish is one day we will get a real call from this young man that involves more then money, but he learned from his mom to treat men like a piggy bank. Yeah…. More to the story but I’ll leave those parts out.

  19. Rick says:

    I like the ‘BS’ call, and believe that it has merit.

    [Wayne County, Michigan]

    8yrs ago there was a consent order that awarded me parenting time 6pm Friday – 7:30am Sunday every week with my daughter and son. I keep a journal of all the weekends that my daughter and/or son has not been with me, no parenting time. The excuse for each case are routinely “we are going up north with family this weekend, your son wants to spend time at a friends house, your daughter is babysitting this weekend” or that my daughter has athletic events on the weekends, to which were decided, enrolled without my knowledge/consent.

    To date (Jan – Oct 2013), I have not had parenting time with my daughter for 22 weekends… I’m going to take my journal of dates and text messages to court with me and pray that the ‘system’ provides some form of justice on my behalf. Allowing the children and their mother to make these decisions is wrong.

  20. Yvonne says:

    Although some valid points are made in this article, I don’t consider it BS to let my children decide if they want to visit their father. I have an 8 year old son and 11 year old daughter, and there are times they want to visit (and do visit). Other times they don’t want to visit. Each time either of my two children express a desire to remain at home, I let their father know in advance and encourage him to call and discuss with them reasons they don’t want to visit. Each time he declines to talk with them. I personally am not forcing my children to go someplace they do not wish to go. Their father lives in a small one bedroom apartment, and they have to share a pull out sofa. They don’t feel comfortable sharing a bed. There are also times that their friends have events they wish to attend. I have often been accused by him of keeping the children from him. However, he has never objected to them staying at home, and I have never denied them visits when they want to go.
    Their father attends their extra curricular activities each week, but doesn’t really communicate with them other than their weekend visits with them. When they visit they have a good time with the activities but not the living arrangements.
    I think each situation is different, and should not all be lumped into one category.

  21. Karen says:

    I’m really surprised no one has said this yet. When my 15 yr old daughter didnt want to visit her father anymore and was threatening suicide if she was made to go I certainly wasn’t going to make her go but I put her in counseling and invited her father to be involved. He flat out refused. I was shocked. Why wouldn’t he want to try to help his daughter work through her issues and hopefully return to her visitations? No, the way he dealt with it? He went to court and tried to take her from me. It didnt work but he did talk our 12 yr old daughter into moving to his house. It’s been three yrs. he’s never seen or spoken to the older daughter and he’s managed to completely alienate the younger one from me. I’ve hired a lawyer and I’m trying to get court ordered counseling for me and my younger daughter. She’s been told by her dad that I kept her sister from her dad, he loves her and I should have made her visit him so she’s not going to visit me. So this is obviously payback in his mind. I feel like I did the right thing by getting my daughter into therapy and inviting her father. I have proof. I’ve shown it to my younger daughter. She won’t even speak to me now. I’m completely heartbroken. This is a very painful thing to go through!!

  22. Mr. Step Dad says:

    Being a step dad to two amazing boys, I am appalled at the behavior that goes on between two adults when it comes to the kids. I married into a situation that had been out of control for years. To watch my wife then girlfriend be bullied and manipulated by such a jerk and loser was painful. However, I made it a point to stay out of it because we were not married and it was not my problem. However, once we married, all bets were off. I refused to allow this chump to bully my wife, especially since we have a child together. I would never refuse him the boys because he is thier dad and he should see them, but beyond that, he can kiss my a**. He pays his measly $500 a month in child support and acts like he king shyt. Pays no medical or health care expenses, no trips, no sports for the kids, no extra’s, I mean nothing. Me on the other, I pay it all. The xbox games, trips to the snow, nice home, nice cars, dinners out, new clothes, etc. And you know, I would not change a thing. I love my wife and kids. They are my life. What does the ex loser have? broken dreams and a ton of regrets. Do the kids want to see thier dad? I think so and they should. Yet, they are hesitant because of his behavior. He is a first class southern redneck who acts like a bully and treats women like dirt. In the end, he will be the same loser ten years from now that he is today. My encouragement for all you parents and step parents having to put up with a real drama king or queen, one day it will end. Just enjoy your life today because it is way to short. Besides the best revenge is looking good.

  23. Marshall Taylor says:

    However there is this A**hole that my current wife was married to. Me and my wife met on the net while we were both going through a divorce. I have 5 daughters (3 grown and 2 living with me) and live in texas, she has 2 grown boys and a daughter that lives in Indiana. she gave up everything to get out from under his abusive behavior, and all though he was abusive to my wife, he “WAS” a good father. upon leaving her x husband she discussed who her daughter wanted to live with with her daughter ( they were very close) my wife didn’t want to up root her daughter from her school and friends so she left her with her father. now her father has turned their daughter against my wife blaming her for leaving her. he and his new live in GF Block our phones so my wife cannot talk to her daughter and use it as punishment on my wife if she says something her x don’t like. he has cut short every visitation my wife is supposed to have and makes it difficult. now he has their daughter convinced she does not have to come to Texas if she doesn’t want to. he has told my x wife she must come to Indiana to see her daughter. yes…I call BULLSHIT! I say throw my wife’s x in jail for contempt and order her daughter to come like it or not! However Money for an attorney is a factor so what does she do…

  24. Sarah says:

    I found this thread after my 14 yr old refused to go with her dad this afternoon. The relationship between them has been toxic for years and he was physically, emotionally and sexually abusive to her when we were still married. I caught him deliberately exposing himself to her on two occasions when she was about 5 and when I asked what the hell he was doing he ran out of the room w/o a word. Anyway, the abuse and toxic relationship has continued and gotten worse. When she’s with him I get a steady barrage of text messages and phone calls about how unhappy she is. We’ve been to court a lot and he constantly threatens me with more court action. My approach to visitation is that I get everything packed and I meet him at the appointed time and place and then I stay in the car and let them hash it out. She always says she doesn’t want to go and i tell her I have a court order to get her packed and get her to the drop off on time. After that she’s on her own – as far as whether she goes or not. Frankly, I can’t make her go with him and I’ve told her that. I am not going to physically shove her into the back of his car and even if I were the type of person to do that she’s too big now for me to be able to. So today I got her there, I put her suitcase on the side walk and she started arguing with him. I stayed and said nothing. I sat in my car and was texting a friend. I didn’t want to leave b/c I wanted to make sure she went with him – she’s threatened to run away. Apparently he shoved her at one point and someone called the police. I didn’t see it happen – but I suddenly looked up and a cop was asking me to get out of the car and show my I.D.; I did and my ex started waving his court order around. The cop said to me ‘you are violating a court order’ I told him that I packed her stuff and brought her here and then stayed out of it while they argued – I didn’t want to leave until I knew she was going to be OK though. The cops said nothing to my ex – even though I later found out he’d shoved our daughter and caused a bystander to call the cops. Apparently, as the custodial parent the cops decided I was the bad guy in the situation. Before the cops got there I heard my ex yelling at our daughter that if she didn’t go with him that her mother (me) would ‘be arrested’ and in ‘big trouble.’ She was crying. I felt so bad. After the cops talked to me they talked to my daughter and she was crying and they told her she had no choice and that she had to get in her dad’s car and go with him. It’s a no win situation for me. They don’t get along and never have. He’s an abusive parent – and yet the court has ordered these visits. I’m trying to comply by getting her packed and getting her over there on time – but I’m blamed when she doesn’t want to go. I have a good relationship with both my kids and i have no idea what it would be like if they didn’t want to spend time with me – I can imagine it would be painful. But I also think that if I was in that situation and I had thoroughly examined my own part in the relationship and didn’t see anything i could do to improve it – at some point I think I’d let it go. I’m a sensitive person and I really don’t want to be around people who don’t want to be around me. So, basically I can’t understand a NCP whose child doesn’t want to be with them – and who yells at and hits or shoves the kid – I can’t understand why they persist. I don’t understand what the point is. I know where I’m not wanted and if my child didn’t want me – and I’d done what I could to improve things – then at some point I’d let it go. I feel so bad for my kids and all kids in these situations. I grew up with a lot of freedom – my parents were overwhelmed with their lives and they basically didn’t pay much attention to where I was or what I was doing and I turned out fine. My kids have to live under court orders and have no say in anything and are forced to spend time with someone who is cruel and mean. My own father was pretty abusive but at least I could get on my bike and leave. I stayed with friends and avoided my dad and I never had cops telling me to get in the car and go with him. The court system totally sucks. I’ve spent tens of thousands – I have so much less money than my ex and he constantly goes to court to try to bankrupt me – it’s his own private war – a weenie war against the mother of his children. The system is basically worthless. It’s supposed to be about the best interests of the children – but really it’s about the best interests of the attorneys, clerks, judges, mediators and most of all the wallets of the child – support paying parent. The best interests of the child are seldom a consideration. My 14 yr old is supposed to be old enough to testify in court – according to the laws in my state – but in reality she isn’t allowed to and can only talk to a mediator – and then only if the mediator decides to talk to her. Supposedly it would be too traumatic for her to testify or something. But if she was a 14 year old baby mama in a custody case against the baby daddy then she’d be treated like any other litigant and wouldn’t be considered too young to testify. In reality they don’t let kids like my daughter testify b/c it impacts the billable hours of the mediators and evaluators and minor’s counsels who have to be paid big dollars to represent kids in court – or mis-represent to be more accurate. So, it’s basically a corrupt worthless money driven system populated with societal bottom feeders (also known as divorce attorneys and custody evaluators) and the best interests of the kids be damned. Early on I wrote about the instances of abuse that I witnessed only to have my attorney warn me that telling the court about the abuse could actually cause me to lose custody to the abuser – in a complete and total perversion justice. Anyway, the system is worthless and kids like my daughter are being sacrificed.

  25. December Woods says:

    Maybe you should try calling BS on the parents who can’t form a bond with their own child, actively make the situation worse, and then expect the other parent to physically force the child into the car. Custodial parents are tired of being the one who have to go through the process of the child refusing to go, the emotional trauma of having that same pointless argument over and over, and hearing how awful the experience was every time they come home. Hold these jerks responsible for forming a positive relationship with their child, and quit putting it on us!

    1. redbear762 says:

      You’re promoting evil behavior here because – assuming no abuse and a loving parent – if you are not ensuring that the child comply with the court order and go spend time with the other parent, you’re part of the problem not the long-term solution.

      My ex used this argument and the result was a poisoned child to the point where it’s become a ‘death’ in my life and I may never see him again. Parents who do this are hurting the child *and* their relationship with the other parent; even if you can’t stand them, you need to back them as the other parent. Wouldn’t you do that if you were together?

  26. Charles says:

    I am a father who pays $1700/mth in child support and have full visitation rights. My kids (16 and 13 yrs old) have been influenced to beleieve I am a bad father which is absolutely false yet they refuse to come with me. Other than just sucking it up and waiting until they grow up and realize I am a good father what recourse do I have? It’s painful to constantly get rejected and have no power to influence them either financially or legally. I would like to be able to stipulate that them refusing to see me is a refusal of me helping them. While I would still provide it would give me SOME control vs NONE.

    1. redbear762 says:

      I am right there with you and, out my four, I have one who has drunk the purple Kool-Aid and is now *deeply* poisoned by my ex and I grieve for him – it feels like he’s died. My other 3 kids are good and 2 are coming to live with me in the Fall.

      The gross dysfunction of the other parent is hard to capture since many ‘walk the line’ and are (not so) subtly influencing the child(ren) by covert and overt forms of reward and punishment. Mine bought the kids who didn’t see me new clothes and bought the one who did see me with hand me downs from Salvation Army.

      The courts also place men in a rough spot; if you can pay support, you most likely *can’t* pay a lawyer and if you do hire a lawyer you get behind in payment. The system is rigged and there is no justice unless you can afford it so there is no justice for responsible divorced dads who are paying their due.

    2. Shebraqtynat says:

      Well this is a 2 edged sword. How I understand part of your comment is this : No visitation = No Child Support. Do you agree with the other edge of the sword : Behind in Child Support = No visitation? I feel really bad for the NCP out there. But the truth is, you have no control of children that don’t live with you…PERIOD. It stinks…I agree. But it is what it is. The best any NCP can do is hope for a brighter future with their children IN the future. Battling their children on visitation plays right into the CP hands. COMMUNICATE with your children how much you love them. COMMUNICATE with your children how much you want to be with them. And then LISTEN to their responses. I guarantee that each time a brainwashed child parrots the negativity of the CP the NCP goes on the defense and does the same thing back about the CP. The child can immediately see if the NCP is lying about the CP….THE CHILD LIVES WITH THE CP. The reverse is not true. The burden thus will always be on the NCP unless there is a amiable relationship between the parents. IT IS WHAT IT IS. You can fight all you want but in the end you will lose if you don’t talk to your child about the subject in a calm non confrontational way. This approach can work despite the age but the topic and terms would.

      1. Marc says:

        Shebraqtynat, wow, I guess I couldnt dislike your comments more. The NCP has no control? Sorry, that is just not the case. In many situations the NCP has joint legal custody with the CP and DOES have control and decision making rights when it comes to healthcare, academics and other important issues in their children’s lives.

        The NCP whose children are being alienated most certainly should not respond in a negative way and expose the children to more abuse that is already being heaped onto them by the CP/alienator. I have been doing this for several years. My ex talks all sorts of crap behind my back to my boys and tells them lies and calls me names. I do not return this as I know this is seriously abusive of the children. I do as little as possible to not bring up her at all and when they do I talk about her respectfully.

        You can talk in a non-confrontational tone, sure. What also needs to happen is that the courts MUST become more pro-active and issue sanctions against parents who alienate their children. At this point it seems the courts care more about money more than anything else. Dont pay support? You’ll end up in jail…..alienate and abuse your child causing life long emotional issues, and not a word is said to you.

        The courts must start seeing this and holding alienating parents to account for their abuse.

        1. Lucie says:

          You are 100% correct. The problem is with the corruption of our courts. The courts will help a lot of parents by recognizing that parental alienation is a serious issue. Children need both parents and both need to be respectful of each other and the children. We are dealing with a ex wife and mother who drunk much of the time, yet is a marriage and family therapist who knows all the tricks in the book. The kids feel bad for her and she manipulates them for sympathy and more money from us. Unbelievable, but we are just waiting till they are adults and taking every moment with them we can, but the secrets just keep piling up.

  27. carrie says:

    My ex husband moved out of the USA to Australia. We have an agreement which only allows him 2 weeks in the summer for visitation. For the past 6 years I have allowed him to have her for 5 weeks as long as she was ok with that. Well after he moved to Australia she said she didn’t want to visithim and she asked me to convey this to him. I told her this is a huge decision that you may regret so if its something you want to do it will be you that tells him. So she ended up going and was miserable between the long flight and him being out of town for work. Last year she told him that she did not want to go but would possibly do a 2 week vacation with him and maybe they could meet in the middle. He said no. Now he gets 3g business class tickets for him his wife and son to come to the USA and chose not to use them to visit his daughter. I don’t see her refusal to go to Australia as an issue. He made his choice and she made hers. She isn’t refusing to see him. He’s refusing to make time for her with the resources he has.

    1. carrie says:

      When is it the Father’s responsibility to create a relationship? I stay out of his relationship with her. I agree a father should stay in his kids life but he applied to work in Australia. He involves her in issues by sending child support to her in her name as birthday gifts and I have to tell her it’s not a gift it’s child support. I’ve told him that he is causing a rift between them. But he continues and blames me for his fractured relationship. I am a child from divorce and I have done everything in my power to remember how I felt. I have bent over backwards to save their relationship. I have pleaded with him to be a better father.

  28. OOT says:

    Balanced time with both parents is just an ideal held up by the court and by psychologists, who refuse to look at the reality of people’s lives and the fact that no one is exactly the same – hierarchies of goodness/badness DO exist in society, in humans. Shared parenting is a crap solution proposed by a psych trend stating that parents’ equal shares in any kid’s life will magically make it better. Regardless of the quality of a given parent and the life that person provides (not talking money here – talking attention, affection, structure, etc.). My son, for instance, doesn’t like visiting his father – cannabis issues and autism, fights with his diseased and bad-tempered live-in girlfriend all the time, etc. If my kid did well with them, and they provided a nice environment for him to grow up in, there would be no issue with sharing parenting. They won’t look at themselves in the mirror and wonder why a kid doesn’t want to spend time with them, preferring to blame my influence, my unwillingness to turn my eyes aside from the way they live and its effect on my kid. It’s almost like we aren’t “allowed” to make a value judgment about the other parent’s parenting unless s/he’s beating the kid to a pulp on videotape. And when the people involved with child custody affairs (judges, etc.) won’t look at reality either, choosing instead to adopt formulaic solutions that will make their caseload fly off desks more quickly (shared parenting, forced involvement with dysfunctional parent), they lose credibility with clients of the system who need the system to work for them but can’t get any justice. The children suffer for it.

  29. OOT says:

    Balanced time with both parents is just an ideal held up by the court and by psychologists, who refuse to look at the reality of people’s lives and the fact that no one is exactly the same – hierarchies of goodness/badness DO exist in society, in humans. Shared parenting is a crap solution proposed by a psych trend stating that parents’ equal shares in any kid’s life will magically make it better. Regardless of the quality of a given parent and the life that person provides (not talking money here – talking attention, affection, structure, etc.). My son, for instance, doesn’t like visiting his father – cannabis issues and autism, fights with his diseased and bad-tempered live-in girlfriend all the time, etc. If my kid did well with them, and they provided a nice environment for him to grow up in, there would be no issue with sharing parenting. They won’t look at themselves in the mirror and wonder why a kid doesn’t want to spend time with them, preferring to blame my influenc
    e, my unwillingness to turn my eyes aside from the way they live and its effect on my kid. It’s almost like we aren’t “allowed” to make a value judgment about the other parent’s parenting unless s/he’s beating the kid to a pulp on videotape. And when the people involved with child custody affairs (judges, etc.) won’t look at reality either, choosing instead to adopt formulaic solutions that will make their caseload fly off desks more quickly (shared parenting, forced involvement with dysfunctional parent), they lose credibility with clients of the system who need the system to work for them but can’t get any justice. The children suffer for it.

  30. Concerned says:

    It all started when my step son was beaten by his mother’s ex boyfriend (which she STILL denies happening). We filed for emergency custody and were denied because she just simply said “he does not live with us” But, in fact, he did. She told her son to lie to Children protection services and say he fell on toys to get the bruises all down his legs and butt.. we fought long and hard just to get every other weekend and one day a week with him which went ok for a while and now (with in the last year) she witholds him for months at a time. Once, he came to our house saying he was sorry he got grounded from our house and that he missed us! This child is now about to be 7 years old and I just believe he is brain washed. She always says he does not want to come when my husband asks if he can pick up his son. She will not let them have communication. Yet, when he is at our house she insists to call at least twice a day or she will call the cops on us? I believe in the order it says
    that the other parent is to not interfere? I just think she always has to have a bug in his ear. He is afraid to disappoint his mom. I get it…that’s HIS mom. But what she is doing is wrong…keeping him from his father even if he truly in fact is saying he does not want to come is WRONG!! I am sure she doesn’t even mention to him when we do try to get him. Is there anything you can do about situations where the child is ultimately getting emotionally abused by being brain washed? because apparently ( in columbus oh) the spouse of your child can beat them and all you have to do is tell little white lies to get out of it,…why would they care if you are getting brain washed?

  31. katie says:

    My ex manipulated the entire divorce. I have “temporary medical custody” of my son until his Autism and severe Mental Retardation go away. I get no child support and we are expected to live on 1300 a month. The judge was fine with this. He has custody of our daughter and he thinks my son has a “demon”. I am utterly devastated without my baby girl and she is suffering from depression. It’s been about 2 months and I’ve finally recovered from the malnutrition I suffered from at his hands( I have lab reports that show malnutrition). I’ve moved overseas to live with my boyfriend and he has spent the entire month helping me recover from malnutrition. At some point I will take ex back to court.

  32. JESSIE says:

    I have kids 12 and 14 who no longer want to see their mom. She breaks plates tells them she wants to punch them in their face, forces them to lie to relatives to manipulate things? What way should I go with this? They only see here every other weekend now, which is the most visitation she has had. I really don’t want to send them back to that. The younger one is especially sensitive. and the older one has a good head capable of solid independent thought, he no longer wants to be made to spend time with her, but does wish to have a relationship, he wants to have visitation as agreed upon. I feel this is fair last time i got my kids she was ripping up their pictures and telling them she never wanted to see them again. I do think their opinion should be considered in this case. Is there a tasteful way for me to do this?

  33. carrie says:

    Jessie
    As a child of divorce it needs to be the child’s decision to cut off ties unless they are put in harms way
    As a mother of a divorce and a child that does not want to see her father when she was able to tell her dad she did not want to see him. I never want to be the one that took a parent from her. So I would tell them that if they really don’t want to see her they need to tell her. That it would be illegal for me to do that. That you will support whatever decision they make 100%. That you can’t make this decision for them because it’s not your relationship with the mom it’s theirs. You could end up in court if she fights but for the most part they are old enough to decide. She could call the police and if the police ask the kids and they say I don’t want to go there the police will choose not to get involved. They are old enough to make a decision unless it is based on them being upset because a parent wouldn’t give them something or they were being grounded for breaking a rule. Just make sure it is their decision and not yours or later in life they will be angry at you.

  34. Juli O says:

    I have a son that is 17 1/2 who went to visit his dad last summer in Florida and that summer he told me he wanted to stay and live with his dad. I was so torn and I had him come home to WA to visit me and his family before the move. My lawyer then told me NO don’t put him back on the plane as it had to go to court for the judge to award him to his dad.. well my son was so unhappy and stressed out and so I knew the following summer when he turns 18 I will have no say. Over time while waiting for things to happen with the lawyers I put my son in counseling and he spent more time with his friends and now decides he doesn’t want to go visit his dad this upcoming summer. He will be 18 in Aug. Can he make that decision not to go in June? My son also tells me every time he talks to his dad on the phone, his dad will tell him that when he comes to Florida for the summer he never has to come back home to WA and now my son doesn’t really want to talk to his dad. I asked my son if his dad might have pressured him to not come back to me last summer and he said he thinks he did. My ex is a very good talker. He knows how to manipulate. I worry every time my kids go to see him they will not return but I never tell them not to go. At this point I think it’s best for my 17 yr old to just stay with me over the summer so his dad doesn’t pressure him. He is probably using things to make him feel guilty that he doesn’t get as much time with him because we live so far away. My oldest graduated last summer and guess what? He is now moving to Florida. Their dad makes really good money and I feel like he works on one child at a time. My youngest says he will always come back home to me. He is 15 1/2 and I feel that it’s only a matter of time when he will work on him next. What age do the kids have to be to really make up their minds? I feel like as long as he is paying child support he can make them go but I don’t like him planting seeds or pressuring them and I want my kids to come back home as I had them for a reason and that is to raise them. Their dad is the one that left the marriage and had his girlfriend and her daughter move in the day we moved out. Any comments would really help. Thanks

  35. vero6 says:

    Hi
    Me and my boyfriend are going thru something with his ex ..we live in tx he has standerd visitation for his 4 kids and she refuses to let him get them has put a criminal trespass on us so we can’t even go to her house to try and get them …and keeps tellin us that her attorney told her she doesn’t have to let us get them.. can a attorney tell her to go against court papers….what can we do…

    1. Larry says:

      For those of you not married and dating someone with kids. My advice is run the hell away from the situation. Unless you have a kid with the person, you are entering a world of hurt and pain. Love is not enough to tolerate the bickering and manipulation you have to endure from a situation that was a mess before you ever arrived. There is nothing wrong with being a single parent, just count the costs of dating one.

    2. Carrie says:

      I didn’t think you could get a criminal trespass on your house. Are you sure it’s not a temporary restraining order? Unless a judge has awarded a restraining order or ruled to terminate your visitation she can not on her own revoke visitation. If she does not have approval from the court she would be in contempt of the court order. Did the police charge him or you? Is there reasonable concern that the child being with you would be dangerous ie arrests, drug use, bruises on the child, unsafe home, physical altercations with the mother? You can contact her attorney for explanation of her advice given to the ex. You can file a contempt complaint per visitation order not being followed. You can call the police show them the visitation order and have them contact the ex and have the exchange of the child done at the police station.

      1. vero6 says:

        Yes I’m sure it a criminal trespass ..and no there had not been anything or any reason for visitation to be modified and we have been to court for that ..she just does not want him to get the kids…I know she is in contempt of court right now and every time were supposed to get the kids we try and she won’t let us..so we go to the police station and get a call sheet…I have asked for her lawyers #but she won’t give it to us she says her lawyer will call us ..but has not yet…my question is can a lawyer tell u to go against court papers..basically tellin u to be in contempt of court…also police have told her that he still supposed to be gettin his kids and she could end up in trouble but she doesn’t care or listen to there advice…

        1. carrie says:

          No attorney would ever tell their client to go against a court order. They could get disbarred and I doubt the attorney is getting paid enough to risk that. There is no attorney if there was they would get an order that takes visitation away legally. If you can’t afford an attorney look online on how to file a contempt of court against her. A lawyer is your best option though they can get results quickly and possibly make her responsible for all legal fees. Any court believes it is in the best interest of the child that both parents be involved and it is better that way. This ultimately will cause the child issues. Get an attorney on Monday the longer you let this go on without being proactive (you’ve exhausted the police next step) the more upset the judge will be at you as well as her. An attorney can get emergency ruling on visitation while you are waiting for a trial.

  36. Carrie says:

    Not all single parents are in constant conflict. I got divorced to stop arguing with my ex. We have had to go back to court but it’s an attorney’s drama not mine. My kid chose not to visit her and I stayed out of it. My life revolves around me my husband and our kids. As step parents we know our boundaries. There is his relationship with his kids my relationship with my kid. There are issues as expected but we discussed all of this prior to marriage. We knew it would be hard at times but we also knew we could rise above it and still be us separate from the kids.

  37. Marc says:

    Thank you! Unless the non-custodial parent is abusive, the children should go with them. Many people here seem to not to be able to understand that there are some custodial parents who work VERY hard at trying to make the children hate their other parent.

    In my situation it started when I asked for a divorce. My ex called my 5 year old son over to her and said “do you know Daddy is leaving mommy for another woman”? It wasnt true, but even if it was, no 5 year old needs to be included in the intimate details of their parents divorce.

    My ex started a campaign of slander and lies on Facebook and the internet which still hasnt stopped after more than three years apart. She refuses me information about the children’s doctor and dental treatment, refuses to even tell me if they have had their annual check-ups. This is all required by the court as we shre joint legal custody.

    I have called my son weekly for the last couple of years. She NEVER answers the phone, I always have to leave a message and then he used to call back 24 to 48 hours after I called. He would then talk on the speaker phone, in the same room as his mother and his adult half brother and sister. All of this is CLASSIC Hostile Aggressive Parenting.

    Two months ago my son stopped calling me. When I e-mail a follow up to his mother she tells me she told him but she couldnt make the 7 year old call. When he is with me on visits he is SO happy, but when it comes time to drop him off at home he is a different boy and acts like I dont exist in front of the house.

    I have been very involved in his schooling, but the mother says this is not true. When I had some concerns about my son at school I contacted his teacher. She said she was glad I was “finally” getting involved, then sent multiple e-mails about how me advocating for my son at school is a “burden” on her and how she “is the mommy” and gets to make the decisions. So she lambasts me for “finally” getting involved in the boys’ school, then complains when I do, wants to set up meetings at school when I cannot make it.

    There are MANY parents out there who actively try to turn their children against the non-custodial parent. It doesnt even have to be overt cursing, swearing and insulting the parent, it can be looks and words of disappointment when the non-custodial parent calls, or scowls and grunts when the non-custodial parent is talked about.

    My ex, when I e-mailed her and told her it is important for children to keep in contact with both parents told me “he is a smart 7 year old” when she said he doesnt feel like calling. LIke she told me when we were going through the divorce, they will realise I am a piece of shit when they get old and they need to know the truth. So I guess that is why she told my 5 year old son a lie about me on my last day at the house.

    Some people out there are evil with what they do to their children. They are hurting their children and their futures. With some of the animosity and bitterness I see in some comments here, I think some of these parents are posting comments. Dont think you are not hurting your children when you covertly show disdain about your ex. You dont have to say it directly, your children will read your bitterness and hatred in your actions, body language and voice. You cant type the comments of some here and NOT have it come through in your day to day behavior even if you think you dont.

    So I am going to be going to court soon, I have to save up the money. I have already spent more than $7,000 dollars on an educational consultant and a lawyer for the educational concerns. She is next and her e-mails and constant poor behavior is going to help greatly in court, I just feel so bad for the boys and what she is putting them through. I just wish I had the money to take her to court now.

    Every day with a parent out of control like this damages the children.

    1. Joan Bailey says:

      Excellent post – I couldn’t agree more.

      My husband has been through the same thing -pays LOTS of child support and NEVER sees his girls. Youngest daughter (age 8 at the time) was telling people,” I’m getting a new daddy. Mr. X is going to be my new daddy, ” Before they separated. (Mom had affair with neighbor and family ‘friend’). Certainly she didn’t come up with that comment on her own, and now “mommy” got what she wanted.

      Counselors and the court have done nothing – mom lies and they believe her. The girls now HATE their father and will be impacted by this hate and anger the rest of their lives. Hate is the key, in my opinion. If the children use that word they have definitely been manipulated because it is not normal to hate a parent. Even the comments from former children who were forced to spend time with a (bad) parent don’t use the word HATE.

  38. Carrie says:

    First only a small amount of parents use the kids to get back at a parent.
    Second it takes 2 people to argue so playing victim is useless.
    Third visitation and custody are completely separate from child support. This is why the court will not hear a custody issue until finances are taken care of.
    Fourth it’s really not easy to turn a child against a parent even if the other parent is bad. It will always bite you if you try.
    Fifth if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem
    Sixth it is extremely difficult to get custody changed unless you can show the kids are in danger and that won’t be proved with emails between you and your ex.

    1. Marc says:

      Carrie,

      I dont think it is true that it is only a small amount of parents that use the kids to get back at their ex. You have a study with numbers? Your statement about “it takes 2 people to argue so playing victim is useless”. That couldnt be more false. I guess you dont understand that often these parents are obsessed. In my situation I havent made a personal comment to my ex is a year and that doesnt stop her from sending me e-mails that are very personal and insulting. It doesnt stop her from insulting and attacking me in e-mails to the school about the boys. So yes, one person can do it all on their own.

      As to whether it is easy to turn a child against a parent or not, I would say it can easily be done by an alienating parent who has the children 5 days out of the week. When the alienation is done day in and day out, often with the alienator’s family getting involved as well, it isnt as hard as you might think.

      One parent can try to be part of the solution, but if the other parent is hell bent on alienating their children, regardless of the massive emotional abuse this puts on the children, it still means it is going to be a very difficult situation and the children will suffer greatly because one parents mental illness and drive to punish the other parent.

      Lets all make a stand and say that we are concerned about the health, mentally and physically, for these children. Hostile Aggressive Parenting is a read threat to children and it will cause children life long emotional scars. No one seems to care about that. Who cares if the children are emotionally scared for life, if they are more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, more likely to have failed relationships of their own? All that matters is that they dont miss a month of child support, what is happening that will impact them until the day they die, that doesnt mean anything.

    2. Joan Bailey says:

      You couldn’t be more wrong – this happens a lot!

  39. Shebraqtynat says:

    The NCP can and should still ask the children how they feel. What will it hurt? Maybe there has been some brainwashing…I feel most CP have done this. But without any communication how will the NCP know? False accusations can be overcome with time and sacrifice. Maybe conceding to your child’s wishes might be the best course of action. When they get older they will be better capable of seeing the big picture. Now I know that last statement won’t sit well with most, if not all, NCP. But consider the alternative. Your battle will be with your children. At least that is how your children will perceive it. Will that draw them closer to you or will it in some twisted way support the CP claims? Young children just can’t separate fact from fiction that well. How about talking to the child and apologizing for anything you may, or only perceived, to have done wrong. Find a happy middle ground. For example, the NCP has visitation every other weekend. The child has been truly brainwash ed by the CP and now wants NO visitation. NCP says, “I’m sorry you feel that way. Some of the reasons why you feel this way are my fault. (true statement as all divorces involve mistakes on BOTH sides. If you feel that that is not true….then your probably right and YOUR the problem!) Can you please give me a chance? You only have to see me once a month instead of twice a month.” After that…BE A BETTER PARENT. Even if you are already a good parent, strive to be even better in some way. Not gifts. Not money. TIME TIME TIME. ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION. SACRIFICE SACRIFICE SACRIFICE. COMMUNICATION COMMUNICATION COMMUNICATION!!! Who knows what will happen. But maybe the child will see you in a different light as it continues to grow up and mature. In time, it’s possible they will be willing to go back to the original agreement. This is just a suggestion. And considering the comments of most NCP on this site show that the “force your will on the child” way is not working, w hy not try a different approach. If you don’t want to try something different and insist on continuing to do it the same old way….well then I can see why your divorced.

  40. Kimberly Bene says:

    Marc,
    I can safely say our home would be another situation where you could say the custodial parent did not interfere with the parents ability to exercise their visitation, the other parent just chose not to exercise it. We live in Missouri, my husbands 14 yr old daughter asked to go to school in our school district, her mother said no. She was doing very poorly in her school district, she went (2) years without allowing a change we went to court, (there are 3 kids) at the time the kids were 12, 9, 6 – the judge ruled that daughter could switch schools. Judge also ruled 50/50 custody for all kids. The weekend after hearing 12/2011 in court Mom and her boyfriend kicked daughter out of her house. Since then Mom has refused to exercise any of her visitation. There was a follow-up court date in March of 2012 where court papers were signed agreeing on custody etc, final bill was $$$$$ – since then – Mom has not agreed to anything with daughter will not co-parent at all — will no t agree to allow daughter to get drivers license – will not agree to let daughter attend college courses – etc… Daughter is now at 3.85 gpa – daughter is still seeing the court appointed counselor – Mom refuses to go to counselor says she is biased because we pay her co-pay — we have tried everything to create a safe place for daughter to move into a visitation situation with Mom it just doesn’t appear it is going to happen – any ideas?

  41. Jonathan says:

    Comment:
    Shebragtynat, Bravo for your neutral comments.I am a non C and I live a very difficult life trying to have a relationship with my children. Can’t say I agree with everything but you make some good points. Some bloggers who only criticize everything and see nothing positive they can use need to adjust their thinking. I will probably try some of the things you mentioned. And I get your illustration about the jeans. Little simplistic but it does make a good point. One thing that bothers me is you said you were married twice but you know how to have a happy marriage and raise good kids. But you had to break your “vow” once too. So don’t judge us too hard on that one eh.

  42. SS says:

    Bravo Marc! I am a CP and a NCP (through marriage). I have never been to court with my ex with our son. He and I get how to co-parent and my 14 year old is turning out to be a fine young man.
    As with my husband who is NCP, we have gone to court for silly things that could be an easy “yes” answer from the CP. Can we have our son (my step-son) from Friday – Sunday instead of Saturday – Sunday (traveling 12 hours for this every month). We get “No”. Why???
    Can we have our son for 10 days instead of 7 days so he can go on vacation with us? “No.”
    It is senseless and anger to get back at the other parent and that is so wrong. There is no abuse, pays child support every month, has a great time with us when we see him. We went through the phone call episodes also. When he was 7 we would get the ‘it is up to you to nurture your relationship’. OK, let us see him. He is 9 now and back in court because she fills his summers with sports and her vacations so we cannot get any time. We try and work around this. It seems to be getting worse each year. Maybe the CP is fearing he will have to good of a time with us? I just dont get it. We would never try and take him from his mother. We just want to spend more time with him! Why dont some CPs get this???? You dont leave these mature situations up to a 9 year either!
    We have also been told that we are intruders and disrupt his life. How awful. Some parents forget that it takes two and if he was good enough to breed with then suck up your nasty thoughts and keep them to yourself. Can you tell I get so frustrated when there is actually a caring, loving father who wants to be a part of their child’s life but the mother doesnt care???
    I cant stand my ex but I NEVER let that interfere with their relationship and we work out schedules together.

  43. Sheena says:

    Colleen I feel your pain!!!! My ex is an alcoholic and a drug abuser. Thanks is what I left him, I wanted to protect my kids from the pain I went through as a child with alcoholic parents. He got in trouble as a young adult for drug sales and had prison hanging over his head. He got 3 DUI’s within 1 year and got sent to prison for 3 years. I was relieved to know my kids would now be safe from his so called “disease”. During his incarnation he was awarded visitation IN PRISON! I was enraged that he made the stupid choices and my kids now had to go to his prison for visits!!! Now he’s out and thanks he should just get every weekend and 7 days on and off in the summer. He lives 2 hours away and I have two other babies. I’m angry at what he’s put our daughters through and he acts like I’m supposed to forget it all and trust him!! I just can’t stomach all of this and I KNOW its only a matter of time before he screws up and I just hope its not with my daughters in the c
    ar… I’m so scared of letting my babies go with him:(:( but there’s nothing I can do…

  44. Larry the man says:

    As a parent of two step children and one biological child, I can relate to all the struggles of being in a blended family. Of course I would not change it for the world. Some of you mentioned parental alientaion for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day each of us has to decided how much contact the NCP will have with the kids. We live in California and the bio dad lives in Alabama. He pays no health care, dental care, education expenses, but only $500 a month in child support. The fucker is so lazy and biligerent about paying the $500 that we have to remind him on the 15th to pay it. He his responsible for paying for half the airline tickets to see the kids and finds a way to screw that up. So my wife and I layed down the law and made it clear that if he is behind in child support then he has no business buying airline tickets. The goal is not to keep the kids away from him, far from it. But to set the boundaries that no is obligated to foot the bill for others so one person can sit on thier ass while others work.

  45. bellasarah says:

    I am the custodial parent, and mother of 3 teens. I take issue with forcing visitation. When parents divorce, I believe that it is up to the one who leaves the family to prove themselves, and to bond with the kids in a way that the kids trust and want to be in their lives. This is not a gender issue, but it does seem to play out much more with the father either neglecting the parental relationship long before the divorce, while the mother tries to be mom and dad to the kids, and in doing so, becomes exhausted, and unable, or unwilling to keep trying to make the marriage work.
    After Dad leaves, the first thing on the agenda is to replace his sex-partner/housekeeper/babysitter, then start pushing for time with the kids once it is all convenient for him, all the while telling the new woman what a nasty bitch his ex-wife is, because his kids see Mom working her tail off even harder to provide for them and be a single parent, and really don’t think so highly of Dad anymore, so they don’t miss him. It must all be the ex wife turning them against him, right? So you then get the step mom on the bandwagon to say that she loves his kids so much, blah, blah..
    Notice that for every 20 Step moms commenting on here there is one step dad. Why is that? It is not due to mothers being favored by the courts that they have custody. It is because they have the parental bond due to their involvement in their children’s lives, even when they work full time outside the home during the marriage.
    This is not meant to diminish that there are good dads, but the vast majority of women do not run to someone else and expect the kids to just conform to a new family, or put so much energy into looking for a new sex partner, rather than nurturing their kids while they are hurting from the break up. Most women do not just make up a story to put the father in a negative light. If you have an affair and break up your family- OWN IT! Your kids have ears, eyes, and minds to think for themselves. That speaks volumes of your character. Affairs are not mistakes or accidents, but rather self serving acts of contempt toward your family and proof that your children do not come first. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it, too. End your marriage first, then you are free to have a new relationship. But when you do, don’t expect your kids to; a) love your new squeeze, or b) take a back seat to that person. If you do, then don’t be surprised that they are pretty much not into you anymore.

  46. bellasarah says:

    Greg, your inability to differentiate between the level of discretion involving parental decisions in what children can and cannot decide for themselves indicates your own incompetence toward commenting on the matter. Anyone who generalizes such issues as though they are simply black and white, would not be someone I hope to have involved in a dispute in such a matter. Anytime there is such a refusal, there is reason to seriously consider the cause. Because children are involved, is even more reason to carefully examine the issue on an individual basis, rather than shoving them into a situation that traumatises them, whether there is or is not a true threat to their well-being. If they believe they are at risk, the correct approach by all adults is to be sensitive in our own approach, and appropriately handle the situation.

    1. You are missing an important point: I write about “court ordered” visitation. My point is that custodial parents shouldn’t allow the excuse of children’s preference to disobey a court order. If the children dislike visitation that much I believe it is the custodial parent’s obligation to get the order modified rather than simply disobey it.

  47. lievana says:

    it saddens me you think like this i had joint custody though i was fighting for legal. My daughter kept comming from her fathers house with bruises but wouldnt tell me a thing so i would ask him and he’d tell me its because shes a kid she got them while playing. That was only for the first couple of times then she told me she didnt want to see him anymore she refused she cried she threw tantrums but i would still make her see him and eventually she grew to be bitter towards me she eventually told me that he would beat her and his new wife encouraged it. Sometimes kids do have a reason and it saddens me to see people being so blind too it.

  48. fedupparent says:

    I call bullsh!t on the whole legal system–from lawyers, to judges, to court orders–it’s all worthless to uphold any law or protect anyone’s rights, unless you have lots of money to pay to get orders enforced. Courts are so flooded with fkd up messes that were once marriage and family. Courts don’t care about abusive ex-spouses who trample the other parent’s rights, custody orders or child support schedules. And don’t waste time expecting courts to do anything to stop the ex who always puts kids in the middle every chance they get. A financially poor mom can write a letter to the court and beg for orders to be respected. I learned firsthand, a court only enforces orders and rights of those who can pay, or can successfully maneuver through all the proper legal channels, alone. The court says until kids turn 18, they don’t have the right to decide which parent to live with. But if an eloquent 15 or 16 year old gets audience with a judge and sways him/her, well then, in effect, the kid DOES get to make those decisions… and so often, they get their way. This is commonplace and parents can only accept it, or pay to fight for parental rights. Our legal system is smack-dab in the middle of the village that helps raise self-entitled, disrespecting kids that ignore authority of parents. In this manner, courts take away parental rights and give them to minors. The money-train that is the legal system is often a destructive system.

  49. MJ says:

    Sorry, but I call BS on a parent who doesn’t put effort into a relationship with his child and blames it on the other parent. If a child refuses to such a level that a court order is issued against the CHILD to use ‘any force necessary’ (for you legal eagles that includes being handcuffed, transported by police car, pepper sprayed, or shot–some of which have been actually used against said CHILD) then that parent needs to take a long, hard look at himself and his behavior. I shouldn’t have to ruin my relationship with my child to make the other parent look better in comparison. And if you insist on having your child handcuffed to ‘enjoy visitation’ with you then don’t DARE come back to me ten years down the road and ask me why that child doesn’t speak to you anymore.

  50. joseph says:

    Ive been through a teeth pulling custody battle im a father who just wants both his daughters parents supportive in her life and ive faught hard to make sure im apart of it, hired a lawyer not to represent me but educate me and did everything hands on. Now thinking I need an attorney to perhaps just take over, thats a whole different story. I have recently been experiencing a beside myself heartbreaking experience. My 2 yr old daughter has gone from being overly excited and screaming DADA! Upon my arrival everytime, to where the last 3pick ups she has been kicking screaming and running from me. I am beside myself but I believe I know why, just dont know how to reverse it. Last visit before drop off she was bit by my bird, no big deal dad was there to save her and kiss the owie. However im not primary caregiver and was in the process of taking her home. Her mother excessively pointed out her owie and dramatized it. The very next pick up my daughter started this behavior. Ive had my daughter 1-8 consistently for over a year and she has always been fine around me I was about to start getting over nights but now I dont know if its best or how to resolve this behavior. After we leave moms 10 minutes later she is fine all smiles and DADA! do I just tough through it and force her to leave with me I dont want to traumatise her this is breaking my heart when the initial pick up and seperation is this difficult?

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