Calling bullsh*t on custodial parents who let the children decide their visitation

Posted Wednesday, August 4th, 2010 by Gregory Forman
Filed under Child Custody, Contempt/Enforcement of Orders, Litigation Strategy, Not South Carolina Specific, Of Interest to Family Court Litigants, Of Interest to Family Law Attorneys, Visitation

When I first started practicing family law I would encounter a number of visitation enforcement hearings in which the custodial parent tried to excuse his or her failure to have the children visit with the other parent because “the children didn’t want to.”  Occasionally, and much to my frustration, the judges would sometimes accept this excuse and not find the custodial parent in contempt.  Early in my career I didn’t have an effective counter to these parents’ claims other than to hope the judge would enforce the order rather than buy the custodial parent’s excuse.  It has been my more recent experience that, absent evidence of abuse, the court doesn’t accept these excuses as frequently.

However, in the interim, I have developed what I believe is an effective cross examination technique for a custodial parent who testifies that he or she won’t force the children to visit the other parent because the children don’t want to.  I ask them what other things they expect their children to do that they don’t require them to do when they don’t want to.  Can the children refuse to do their chores/eat their vegetables/practice their violin/brush their teeth if they don’t want to?  Can their children drink bourbon for breakfast when they don’t want to drink milk?  Can their children have sex with their boyfriend/girlfriend when they don’t want to spend the afternoon studying?  Can their children go to the beach when they don’t want to go to school?

There’s a heck of a lot of things that parents force their children to do because they’re the parent and they decide what’s good for their child.  Visiting the non-custodial parent–assuming the child really doesn’t want to visit and also assuming there’s no abuse going on–is one of those things the courts should be forcing upon the children and custodial parent.  If the situation with the non-custodial parent gets bad enough, it should be the custodial parent’s obligation to seek an order reducing the other parent’s visitation, rather than simply denying visitation and expecting the court to not enforce its own orders.

Only one time in my career have I seen a child refuse to visit the non-custodial parent when the custodial parent supported the visitation and, in that case, the parties eventually agreed to forgo the non-custodial parent’s visitation when it became clear in (court-ordered) counseling why the child didn’t want to visit.  I was hoping that the courts were getting away from letting children, with the support of the custodial parent, decide their own (lack of) visitation and that the courts were gradually seeing that this unwillingness to visit was frequently tied to the custodial parent’s disregard for the other parent.  However, just today, I have discussed or been involved in three situations in which visitation has been denied because the custodial parent supported the child(ren)’s decision not to visit.  It may be time to dust off my “bourbon for breakfast” script.

591 thoughts on Calling bullsh*t on custodial parents who let the children decide their visitation

  1. I love your “bourbon for breakfast” analogy and will take advantage of it the next time I am faced with this situation.

    I never believe that a child reaches a decision not to visit without help from the custodial parent.

    The best book I ever read on domestic relations is Martin Gugenheim’s “What’s Wrong with Children’s Rights.” His premise is that children should have no involvement in custody and visitation issues, including no guardians, no lawyers, no counselors, and no conslultation. If parents love their children, they do not give them any say so as to whether or not to visit but that does not mean that the parent and the child cannot discuss modifications to suit their needs.

    Great column.

    1. liz says:

      hey I have two grandchildren who confide in me, 7 and 10, they live with their father and love it, both children cry when they have to visit their mother, so I thought it was time to ask why? the children don’t like their mothers boyfriend, who drinks, their mother spends no time with them when he is home, even after court orders not to he still lives in the house with them. their mother and her boyfriend have had a child together and they get shoved aside for the other child, when they are with her. the court ordered her no drinking around the children, and no boyfriend living with you, she does what she wants to do and has never listened to the judge. She and my son are not divorced yet, so she has committed adultry, she and her boyfriend drink and smoke around the children, she takes the children out of state without notifying my son for weeks and the children aren’t supervised when with her, riding their bike in the street, swimming in the pool with no supervision. I can understand why the little things cry when they have to go stay with her. But people like you don’t support the children, you pick someone else to blame, I thought the courts were made to protect children, but they aren’t, it’s people like you who support mandatory visitation and then say what a shame another little child was run over by a car or drowned in the pool. Children nowdays are very intelligent if they tell you they don’t want to go to the noncustodial parents home then there must be a good reason, listen.

    2. Laura says:

      What’s Bullshit is that the courts fail to see a parent that is a true abusive alcoholic that scares the shit out of their child. That is when a child’s voice needs to be heard and things taken into consideration. Because Family court does not take these things seriously and enforces children to go with a parent even if they are fearful. This is when tragedies happen like the 2 little boys forced to visit their father who was clearly mentally unstable, so he lights the house on fire and burns all three of them to death. Where is the judge that ordered that visitation and who the hell was the psychologist that evaluated that parent? Then everyone watches the news and wonders how such a tragedy could happen to these innocent children. They didn’t have a voice in the family courts did they, they didn’t have a chance ? So I don’t want to hear a damn word about how these children should not have a say and how the other parent is just brainwashing the child and not disciplining. Children are little people and their feelings and fears matter just as much as an adults. They didn’t ask to be thrown into all the bullshit court system and they continue to be exploited by the courts. Who will protect them, I sure don’t see the family court doing so!!!

    3. paul says:

      very interesting dilemma as i too am in the same situation. having 50/50 this is the 2nd time my two sons mom has accused me of abuse. first time courts favored with me and gave me sole decision making but we kept 50/50. this time around my 15 year old has used the abuse card to get his way. what have i been accused of: not enough snacks, have steak and potatoes (every day), i smoke in the garage, i wont drive them “anywhere”, i shut off cable because of the junk they were watching and i make them go to bed at 10pm.

      i guess we know who’s running the show as the GAL buys it all. so they can either stay at disneyland or have to go to dads.

      1. Boyka says:

        Paul,
        Your dilemma is the same as mine…Althought I am just the girlfriend I remain out of any of it as much as I can. There is the occasional boyfriend asking me to pick up his son here or daughter there but it is still very hard to watch this kind of behavior produce our next generation. I made my own mistakes with my son and hate to see them happen to someone I love now. How many teenagers go on a cruise to the caribbean their senior year of high school in October? Or buys their daughter a $300 puppy because she wants one and now the daughter doesn’t go to the dad’s house because of the dog requiring her attention. Kids don’t go to dad’s because they have to do chores or work on the farm. We come from a working middle class family what is becoming of our youth for the future? I like your phrase Disneyland or go to dad’s- hmmm which would you chose if you were a teen?

    4. Sharon Browne says:

      I am going to try to see if I can find the book you mentioned. Perhaps it will help me with my current situation with my daughter. Also, I like the comments from Mr. Forman. If I go into court to have my order enforced, I will use his comments.

      I am currently going through (again) with a teen (she’s 16 now) who refuses to talk to me or visit with me. I am the non-custodial parent. She stopped talking to me in June 2012. Our relationship prior to June was good. She had no reason to stop talking to me. Then when my visitation came in August, she sent me an email stating that she had lots of school work to do for her upcoming school classes. I believed her. School comes first.

      She still refused to talk to me until I called her Dad and said that a court order states he must make her available for my phone calls every Sunday at 7pm. He is in contempt right now. When I asked for my daughter last week, the step mother told my youngest son that my daughter is sleeping and not available.

      That’s when I placed a call to her Dad. I told him that I want a call, not an email, but an actual phone call. I have yet to get it. Her Dad said he’ll take to her. He will have her email me. He also wanted to know if I had gotten an email in the past from her about visitation and phone calls. I have not.

      My daughter has been emailing me this week saying that she has no intention of talking or visiting me what so ever. I simply told her that until she reaches the age of consent, she will be available for calls and visitation. I will not change that. In addition, she stated in an email this week after I told her not to address me by my first name:
      “I will not be referring to you as “mom” because you are not a mother to me. Giving birth to me doesn’t give you that title. ”
      Her step mother used to yell that to me whenever I brought the kids back from my visitation and they wanted to stay with me. The step mom said that she’s their mother now and I’m just the birth Mom. I don’t take care of them.

      About three years ago, my son did the same thing as my daughter is doing now. I allowed him to make the choice of coming with me or staying with his Dad. He choose his Dad each time. This went on for 1 1/2 yrs. My son missed out on a lot of quality family time with me. He now regrets it. He still says he’s sorry about his behavior. I am at fault for allowing this behavior to have continued.

      I don’t want the same mistakes to happen with my daughter. I don’t want to loose any relationship I have with my daughter. I love her so very much. I know that the step mother has a lot of influence with her. After all, when you hear negativity every day, you tend to believe it. Furthermore, I had to explain to my young son at the age of 6yrs that it was not a good thing to call Mommie, a *itch. He didn’t understand because that’s what his step mom and Dad call me.

      I refuse to talk to my children about court and adult issues. They do not need to be involved with it. I also refuse to say negative things about their step mom and Dad. It’s not fair to them.

      Additionally, the children are not allowed any contact with their older brother and his wife because the step mother doesn’t like them. My older son and his Dad do not have any type of relationship. His Dad refuses to talk to him. I have encouraged both sides to talk and communicate to no avail. I still continue the encouragement to this day. Both men are very stubborn.

      I guess I’m wondering where does a non-custodial parent with limited income go for help with court-ordered visitation go in the State of Virginia. I live in Michigan.

      1. Calling BS says:

        I’m in the same boat; I’ve tried to find per se resources but it’s pretty limited and the sad roll of the dice here in PWC is that if you wind up in Potter’s court, you’re bent over and legally raped repeatedly until you give up or go nuts. Stay away from PWC if you can.

        My limited neophyte understanding is that without hiring a lawyer in Virginia you have to appear in person so that makes life pretty miserable for a parent in another State and the economy is requiring lawyers who normally take clients on a ‘pay as you go’ plan to forgo that practice entirely. [If you can find that particular unicorn, let me know!]

        Sharon, I’ll be praying for you and your situation.

        -Bear-

  2. Linda says:

    On the claiming abuse issue as a general basis for “not forcing visitation”, did the custodial parent call DSS or report the alleged abuse to the authorities? Usually not, because there wasn’t any. . .at least one Judge here has added the child as a party and let them face the music with the custodial parent if they didn’t visit.

    1. paul says:

      where it gets tricky, as in my situation, the custodial parent with my son called the cops on me and they found NO abuse but still had a
      restraining order placed on me by courts and eventually removed.

      now the kids know how to use the “system” especially counselor to get what they want.

  3. Cherie says:

    Amen. I agree. If parents who are separating or divorcing want healthy children, they need to encourage the relationship that their children have with the other parent and support it. I understand that it is not the most natural thing to do when you are separating or divorcing the other parent but as a parent we often make choices or sacrifices for the good of our children. This is definitely one of them.

  4. MJ Goodwin says:

    I love some of your cross examples. I’m going to borrow those. The biggest problem that I encounter with this situation is a tween-age kid (say 11-14) who has not be “abused” in the traditional sense, but whose non-custodial parent has behaved so badly, for so long, that the child simply wants nothing to do with that parent. That, for me, is the hardest case, especially as a GAL. I try to gradually work the child into wanting see the other parent and encourage the non-custodial parent to curb some of the bad mouthing or other “non-abusive” behavior that has led to the problem in the first place.

    1. MJ-

      Unless the non-custodial parent represents a danger to the children, I tell my custodial clients to stick their children in the other parent’s car and tell them to enjoy the time the best they can. It my experience, the children, upon understanding that the custodial parent supports their visiting with the other parent, accept the visitation even if it isn’t exactly what they want to be doing.

      Kids only get two parents and they need to have a good relationship with both whenever possible. Yet how often does the children’s relationship with the non custodial parent deteriorate after the parties separate? I am amazed that the family court fails to acknowledge this correlation and fails to attribute this correlation to actions–however subtle–by the custodial parent.

      If the custodial parent wants the children to have a good relationship with the other parent, they almost always will. When the relationship begins to deteriorate, I believe we need to closely examine what the custodial parent is doing and take control from that parent and the children (unless there is actual evidence of abuse).

      1. MJ Goodwin says:

        Your position assumes that the custodial parent is the villian. That is not always the case. I have seen custodial parents encourage, very adamantly, that their child should visit the “non-abusive” but poorly behaving visiting parent, to no avail. Each case has to be viewed on its own merits. There is little room for a broad brush approach in dealing with children.

        1. AR Robinson says:

          I agree with MJ Goodwin that there should not be a broad brush approach. Not all non-custodial parents have the best interest of the children at heart.

        2. Tkay says:

          Indeed MJ you are correct. Every case will be different, as different as the children are themselves. Out of three of my children the eldest was most able to stand up to her controlling father. The other two took a little longer but eventually they did too. Court ensued, the truth finally came out and their father handed me full custody as he was unable and unwilling to address the drinking problem that so plagued the children. The Judge held him accountable for what he had done to them and ordered him to address it with hope of regaining his children. Our Judges are extremely clever people who have seen it all before and can usually spot a liar at 20 paces, I respect their knowledge immensley. Looking back I should’ve taken them all when I left not done the 50/50 thing but I didn’t want to fight my children if they wanted to see him. One by one they left him and one by one I supported them. Of course I have been accused of stopping them from seeing him but this is simply untrue and bothers me not in the least.
          I understand this blog is about the topic of letting children choose where they live. If we have raised honest, open, clear communicating children then don’t we, as a community, owe it to them to listen to them?

        3. paul says:

          “your position assumes that the custodial parent is the villian”

          in many cases they are. i think richard warshaks book “divorce poison” broaches this subject. the bad thing is the courts, gals and therapists
          many times are unqualified to see it.

        4. paul says:

          “your position assumes that the custodial parent is the villian”

          in many cases they are. i think richard warshaks book “divorce poison” broaches this subject. the bad thing is the courts, gals and therapists
          many times are unqualified to see it.

          especially when the kids have been conditioned to believe the other parent is “bad”.

      2. LIsa R. says:

        Why do you think that children need to have a good relationship with both parents whenever possible. If you a a 14 year old telling you that she doesn’t want to go to dads, she hates it there. He never spends time just with her and he always has his girlfriend, her twin sister and husband and their two kids there every weekend that is their visiting weekend, why should she go. It obviously is not important enough to just have his daughter their to spend time with and actually get to know her, really get to know her. I will never force my children to go and try to develop a relationship when there is no common respect coming from the other side and taking into consideration what his daughter wants. We have another daughter that is 10 and she cries her eyes out when it comes the time to go with her dad. Why do think it is okay to put kids through this added emotional stress when as children in today’s society there is enough stress that they have to deal with already. Children are not stupid and we as adults really need to start listening to them.

  5. California observer says:

    The right thing legally might not be the right thing personally.

    I was one of the “good parents,” following the court order to the letter, sending my daughter for her four days a week with a mentally disturbed mother who manipulated and emotionally abused her. But there were no physical marks, the mother was incredibly personable and reasonable to any adults around. My daughter was going crazy (aged 9-12), while I hoped the private therapists who saw the damage would speak up.

    Turns out therapists are professionally banned from offering custody advice (NOW they tell me!), so I needed to start a two-year process of a full psychiatric custody evaluation. Finally got it, it revealed exactly the craziness we all knew about, and my daughter has been 100% with me ever since.

    So doing the “right thing” meant a kid lived half-time for four extra years in a horrific emotional environment, while the legal and theraputic machinery creaked on; thumbing my nose at the court could have saved her much of that trauma, and I often regret not taking that path.

    1. California observer-

      Note the exception I make for my views on this topic when there is evidence of abuse.

      When there is abuse I suggest the custodial parent file an action to limit the other parent’s visitation. I acknowledge that it sometimes takes a period of counseling with the child to get the evidence of abusive behavior but I would rather see a child undergo brief periods of psychological abuse by the non-custodial parent, as the therapist develops evidence of abuse, than have custodial parents taking it upon themselves to decide when the non-custodial parent should have visitation.

      1. voice of experience says:

        Are you serious? You would rather see a child subjected to short term abuse while the therapist gets to the bottom of the matter than take the custodial’s parent’s word??

        Please, please enlighten yourself to the nightmare of the emotional abuser. An Emotional Abuser leaves no physical scars. Instead, they can destroy one’s ability to function on an emotional level in no time at all. Emotionally abusive parents will do anything and everything to interfere with a successful relationship with a therapist, successful relationship with custodial parent, relationships with siblings, friends and extended family in order to control that child’s thoughts, words and deeds.

        Emotional abusers are master manipulators who use thinly veiled threats to control their children. They maintain a Jekyll and Hyde demeanor to keep everyone on edge.

        All emotional abusers put forth an image (front) designed to present positive image of themselves and their family. Misery for them and everyone involved is far better than failure or loss of control.

        Emotionally abusive parents due the most damage when given time alone with their child. This is the worst possible scenerio for that child. The child is defenseless to disagree for fear of angering the parent and generally has no safe place to get away from or gain privacy from that parent.

        To suggest that the custodial parent is the instigator in preventing children from visiting their noncustodial parent without looking at each situation on a case by case basis shows a total lack of regard for the family involved.

        In cases where a child has a good relationship with the noncustodial parent, there is little that the custodial parent can possibly do to convince their children to remain away.

        When a child is hesitant to leave with the noncustodial parent, then for heaven’s sake, sit up and listen. It’s time to take notice and give validation to the child’s concern. To do anything less is irresponsible.

        Tweenagers are far more insightful than you seem willing to give credit. Kids know when they are being treated fairly as well as mistreated. What kids don’t know is who they can trust and believe.

        If I have succeeded in at least prompting you to possibly rethink your position, then I will consider that a success : )

        1. Sam says:

          Yes, but what do you do when the emotional abuser with the Jekyll and Hyde traits is the custodial parent?

        2. Calling BS says:

          What do you do with a parent acts like her children the same way Gollum does with the One Ring? (“Don’t take my prescioussesss!”)

          I disagree with then entire ’emotional abuse’ argument since it can’t be proven, holds no DSM diagnosis, and, at best, it’s junk science. In truth, it’s become the ‘raison d’etre’ for a segment of of women looking for an excuse – any excuse – to divorce and divide families and to keep children away from their fathers.

          I have a son, who when he made his conscious choice to visit me, was marginalized and punished by his own mother for doing so and she cut his twin ‘out of the herd’ to ensure that her own ‘half of the set’ was secure.

          To ensure that, she lied, manipulated, and otherwise painted a very broad, negative picture of me to the disassociated child and his siblings and passive-aggressively told the children it was okay if they didn’t visit.

          Two years later, the outcome is that her behaviors have shattered the relationship between the oldest twin and her as well as the youngest twin and I – something that could have all been avoided if she had been an actual proactive custodial parent who could put aside her own deep-seated anger issues and put the kid in the car.

          I am off to court soon to do a few things: 1) let the younger child know that I am fighting for him, 2) get her continued violations of the court order on paper, 3) possibly get the Division of Youth Services and a guardian ad litem involved to investigate what I believe is a pattern of abusive behavior.

          At 16, I may not get custody of him but I will be able to sleep better at night knowing that I fought the good fight for my kids.

          1. Erin says:

            Calling BS.. First.. do not paint all situations with the same brush as yours. You have a bad one but that does NOT mean that all emotional abuse is BS. I mean in your own post, you begin by calling it BS but end it by accusing your ex of that same emotional abuse. So is it real or isnt it? Only if it is you that are being accused of it?

            Sorry, no it is real. And I have been to court. PRO SE with the father actually having an attorney and me not. I won, why because I had the facts on my side. I had all of it documented and all he had was his outrage of not having seen his children for 3 years. Nevermind that he actually made any attempt to see them, call them or even call me to ask. Nevermind that when his daughter didnt do as he asked her to his answer to it was to tell her she was dead to him and never speak to her again. Nevermind that his son who was 9 at his last visit had a very very valid reason for not wanting to return. Read my prior post. His father could have handled it at the time by simply talking to his son, making a sincere apology for at minimum hurting him and doing something in his presence that was not well thought out. However, that would require him to actually have accepted some fault in the situation instead of pointing fingers at me and everyone else for keeping his children from him.

            In the end he had no choice but to deal with the consequences and understand your relationship with your children is not handed to you on a silver platter. You actually have to work at it. Earn respect not expect it. Lord knows I tried most of their lives to promote a good relationship between them even when he did everything to destroy it.

            Emotional abuse IS REAL an damaging on either side. So please do not dismiss it, or paint all custodial parents with the same brush as your ex. There ARE times that visitation with the custodial parent can be damaging. I would hope not often, but cannot say. The only thing we can do is listen to our kids. When something they tell us is happening, first attempt to discuss it with the other parent. If possibly both custodial and non custodial parents should present a united front. Also even more important any other adults in the situation should stay OUT OF IT. I cannot express this strong enough. They may be part of it, but they are not the parents. The parents of the children are the ONLY PARENTS and often the other adults cause even more issues in a situation that is difficult enough.

          2. paul says:

            its interesting because both you and Erin are correct in your own situation. the emotional abuser could be the custodial parent or the non and by labeling all custodial or all non as the abuser, we are missing the point.

            bottom line it all depends on the situation but if the non does not enforce their right to see their child it is their loss. but for those like bs who wants a relationship with his child and they are unfortunately being manipulated, thats the travesty.

        3. paul says:

          you are dead on with the emotional abuse. however, very often emotional abusers play the “abuse” card as they know how to play the victim many times from their own upbringing.

          teenagers pick up on these tactics and very often the custodial parent, who wants all the control, plays the “abused” role very effectively in court.

  6. Single Parent says:

    I am surprised at how cavalier professionals are about sending children into the lion’s den (disturbed parent) just in case the other parent is alienating the child. If there is evidence that a child is being emotionally abused or manipulated, shouldn’t a Judge check on the allegations before assuming the custodial parent is causing the rift? I am sympathetic to parents and children who are dealing with this selfish manipulation by a disturbed parent. In the case of California Observer I see a typical trend in the Court’s handling of this type problem.

    1. I am sure this was a difficult time for everyone involved (especially the child) and it sounds like it lasted for several years which I believe was unnecessary.
    2. During the ages of 9-12, children are just coming into a sense of who they are. They need to be able to trust themselves so that they can develop those skills into adulthood. When a disturbed parent is manipulating a child into not trusting what they know in favor of making the child believe the disturbed parent is right, it stunts this development and causes a lot of internal turmoil for the child.
    3. Parental Alienation or manipulation is not that hard to figure out if someone is willing to take the time to investigate. I believe Judges should have a “plan” for making that happen which might start with a court appointed therapist and a well constructed set of questions. It should not go on for years requiring the “well” parent to prove the abuse.

    WHY NOT ERROR CAUTIOUSLY ON THE SIDE OF THE CHILD? Let the adult deal with the injustice while a Judge’s determination is made. If the claims are false, let the other parent deal with the consequences of not telling the truth. Isn’t this what we are supposed to be teaching our children anyway?????

    Lastly, I will repeat myself from another blog response. Family Court Judges should be focused on what is best for the children and the family. Defaulting visitation or custody to a disturbed parent is not in the best interest of either; it is in the best interest of one of the parties to the case. By the Court’s lack of response in Calif. Observer, the needs of the child were dismissed in favor of the non-custodial parent. The results forced a child into intensive therapy for years. I’m sure it was confusing for the child because they were trying to figure out if they were crazy. By nature, children do not want to be in therapy. When a child is in therapy due to a parent’s actions, I feel that represents the most heinous form of emotional abuse.

    I also believe that Calif. Observer’s experience is not that uncommon.

  7. Stacey says:

    I have a question about teenagers and visitation. I also call bullsh*t on allowing the self-absorbed teen to decide their own visitation. It blows my mind that the courts would allow such especially when there is absolutely no reason absent abuse that the child shouldn’t visit other than the custodial parent’s lack of support for the visitation. I have been told of a “15 year old rule” in SC, which says the custodial parent can not be held in contempt of a visitation order. Is this true and is there such a rule? If so, where can I access a copy of it? If this is true, then there is no reason to have or to modify a visitation order once a child turns 15, because no order can actually be enforced at that point.

    I have fought for 8 years to maintain a healthy and as normal as possible relationship with my now 15 y/o daughter. I have joint legal custody with a visitation order but have had to involve law enforcement on at least two occasions to exercise visitation and there have been a number of other instances where my ex has used her power as custodial parent to frustrate and/or deny my parental rights; I was not notified of my daughter’s confirmation in the Methodist Church in direct contempt of our court order, which is only one instance of many in that regard.

    In 2007, my ex moved to VA and provided a written offer to have our visitation order modified at her expense to include visitation on all holidays, the entire summer, and one visit per month to my residence at her expense. I never agreed to the change because agreeing to change the order would establish my consent for her to move my child away. I was opposed to the move but the legal advice I received at the time said that I had only about a 50% chance of stopping her. However, we have followed her visitation proposal with only minor deviation over the past three years.

    On to present day, my ex planned a two-week vacation in Barbados including my daughter during middle of July. She told my daughter she was going and sent her to be the messenger to me. I was not included in any way in the planning. When I notified my ex that my wife and I had already planned our family vacation during that same time, suggested going a week or so later, and informed her that my parents were celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary during the time they were planning to go to Barbados, she then reverted back to the current order, which splits the summer equally so she could have that time regardless of my plans and the celebration of a significant family milestone. She ended up having to cancel her trip because my daughter’s passport had expired and she needed my signature to renew it.

    In retaliation, my ex filed a complaint with the court to reduce my visitation to 2 weeks in the summer because my daughter no longer wants to spend all her holidays and the entire summer with me. My daughter became very upset with me because their vacation to Barbados was canceled. Obviously, my ex put our daughter in the middle and created a situation where she would resent me and any visitation, ordered or not.

    If there is a 15 y/o rule, I am royally screwed. I have already had a preliminary hearing and there is a temporary order in place which includes a Guardian ad Litem; my daughter and I have an appointment with her in 3 days. Even though my daughter’s anger with me over the trip has subsided, I believe she is expected to be in lock-step with her mother and no matter how much she might enjoy her time here once she arrives, she will not betray her mother due to the alignment her mother has created over the past 8 years.

    What do I do? I am representing my self because I have spent close to $50K in the past and have gotten no protections. I’m done spending money on this, going broke in the process, and having no protections. When I filed my answer to her complaint, I also filed contempt charges on her for the situations mentioned above as well as several others. I was hoping to use the charges as negotiating power to get her to a reasonable settlement w/out going to trial on her complaint or the contempt. I have since learned that the clerk of court’s office lost my charges; how convenient for my ex.

    Any advice on how to approach this with the GAL would be appreciated.

    1. voice of experience says:

      Though certain your court date has long sensed past, may I suggest you stop playing the victim. To maintain a true connection and sincere relationship with your daughter even at this distance, use the gifts of electronics. Skype her regularly or use Face Time if you both have Ipads. Though not present in person, you certainly can be together through this use of technology.

      The positive outcome of this is the undeniable documentation of your presences regularly and your attempts to connect. Any back and forth email conversations between you and your child, especially if it’s glowing after a face to face visit, may be used to further support any favorable changes in child visitation.

      Ultimately though, what you are really aiming for is her desire to come stay with you not because it’s a court order but because she loves you, loves being with you and is there voluntarily. That way, when she turns 18 and has no legal obligation to visit whatsoever, she will continue to do so simply because you are that important to her.

      I think that we as parents some how think we ‘own’ our kids or that they our kids “owe us” for all that we have done during their childhood.

      The reality is that none of our children choose to be here, nor did they select you as their parent. Though for a period of time, you are legally obligated to provide for that child, a child is never legally obligated to be grateful for what they have been given.

      Just remember parenting a child is not a right, it is a privilege. If your child has distanced him/herself from you, regardless the reason then show them how important they are in your life and how much their involvement in yours means to you. Actions speak far louder than words. :-)

      1. Angela says:

        No. The man does not sound like a victim; he’s describing a real situation in a factual manner.

  8. Dan says:

    Greg,
    I have to call a loud and resounding BULLSH*T on your position. It is complete nonsense. The “right” of a parent to see their children should not be obstructed by the other parent; however, that “right” in no way places any responsibility on the other parent for its fulfillment or satisfaction. If the children are being forcibly restrained from visiting the non-custodial parent, then the court has some authority, but without evidence of forcible restraint, the court has no authority to interfere, because no order of the court has been violated. If the children choose not to go, then that is their choice, and it is up to the non-custodial parent to address the problem with the children, not the court’s or the custodial parent’s. If the non-custodial parent chooses not to address the children’s resistance to seeing him/her, then that is tantamount to abdication of the “right” to see the children. It is no small point that these children may share the custodial parent’s opinion of the non-custodial parent based solely upon the children’s experience with the non-custodial and may be making an informed decision based upon that experience, which, absent any information or evidence to the contrary, neither you nor the court are authorized to ignore or overrule.

    1. Tkay says:

      Here here Dan.

  9. Erin says:

    I also call bullsh**! I have an 11 year old son that wants nothing to do with his non custodial father. Why because he only bothered to see him 3 times a year if that. This goes back to birth. I remarried when he was an infant. He bonded with the step father. His father is a full blown narcissist and I do not throw that out there lightly. During his infrequent visitations which I pushed vehemently on him to do, the non custodial father would make one negative comment after the other about me, my husband and his step brother if my son made the mistake of mentioning any of them.

    His final visitation his father was doing a dance or jig he called it singing and laughing. My son thinking it was a funny thing asked him what he was doing and he told him that he was doing the dance he was planning to do at my funeral! I have lupus and am disabled with many medical problems. My son worries about this alot which his father would know if he bothered to talk to him but instead felt making a joke out of something that was a serious matter to my son without even a single thought. My son was so upset when he got home he said NOTHING for 2 days. That is how long it took me to get out of him what he was so upset about. When he told me nothing but rage poured out of him about his feelings about his father and how he just didnt want to go back because of all of the things he was saying and doing and then let me in on them all! I was floored! Here I had been trying to be a good parent and encourage a relationship between them and my son was being hurt by this man each time he bothered to take him for a visit.

    Our daughter who was older and idealized him went all the time. He wouldnt take our son so many times and here I thought this would be what did damage! I told him that day I wouldnt make him go back unless he wanted to. His father only asked to see him again that Christmas 6 months after and expected me to force him to come. I had done all the forcing I intended to do. I told him he was welcome to talk to our son and see if he could fix the damage he had done and if he decided he wanted to come after all I would be more than happy to let him go. He didnt bother and has only ever made a stink over visitation when he was trying to arm wrestle me over forgiving his huge child support arrearage (owes me over 13k in past due support) and was having a contempt charge put on him.

    I couldnt FORCE him to see our son or be a part of his life but I am expected to FORCE the child he has so neglected and treated so horribly to go and visit him??? How is THAT in the best interest of our child? There is no bond between them because he never tried to form one. Our son never even asks about him because he really feels nothing there. He has no void because he has a step father that he is so close to. I would forgive every dime of support and arrears for him to sign over his rights but he refuses to do that either.

    I think my issue is sometimes the visitation contempt is used by nc parents only when they are being pressed for the back support they owe. I would love for his father to show a single time in the past 2 years he ever tried to see him or a single birthday card he ever sent or for that matter even a birthday or christmas present. Our daughter that actually idealized him now is 19 and has nothing to do with him either because she grew to see him through the eyes of an adult instead of a little girl that wanted to believe her daddy was a great man. Once she saw the real man, she now has nothing to do with him. The difference was they bonded and she did not have another fatherly relationship to fulfill that need as our son has so it took longer. But he managed to poison even that relationship..all by himself.

    I feel for good parents that are denied visitation but what about those that dont bother with them but a few times a year and then holler fowl when the child no longer cares to see them? They have only themselves to blame. I couldnt force him to be a father to our son, I certainly wont force our son to be a son to his father either!

    1. Erin:

      I am not sure that your situation is the one my blog describes. Your ex-husband wanted nothing to do with your son. It’s no surprise your son reciprocated this lack of regard and didn’t want to visit his father.

      It has been my general (though not sole) experience that when a child doesn’t want to visit a parent who desires a relationship with the child, and there’s been no real abuse, it’s because the custodial parent won’t advocate the other parent’s relationship with the child. You can always make up some reason for a child not wanting to visit, as no parent is perfect, but, absent abuse or parental hostility towards the child, those reasons only appear to gain traction when the custodial parent is resistant.

      1. Dan says:

        Greg,
        I want to reiterate the point from my post, sorry for butting in Erin. The custodial parent has ZERO responsibility for the relationship that the children have with non-custodial parent. I say this as a NON-Custodial parent. My relationship with my children is my responsibility, not my ex’s. The premise of your argument is flawed. You wrongly assume that a relationship can be formed or repaired by a person who is not in that relationship. If the children don’t want to see the non-custodial parent, then it is the non-custodial parent’s responsibility to determine the reason and work it out with the children. Most people who complain about this type of visitation problem never made an effort to have a relationship with their children in the first place. They unreasonably think that now that they are ready to make a lazy half dead effort, everyone should bend over backwards to accommodate them. I say, “NO!!!” If they wanted a relationship with the children, then they should have started one when the children were young and worked from that foundation. The type of people that you are describing are lazy and irresponsible and think that they are “owed” a relationship with their children. If they REALLY wanted one, they would work for it.

        1. Dan,

          While not denying your experience was different, my experience representing parents (both custodial and non-custodial) is that the custodial parent has tremendous influence over a child’s relationship with the non-custodial parent. I believe most family court judges would agree with my assessment.

          1. Erin says:

            Greg, sure we have some. But frankly I had my hands full being his mother AND father while his dad chose to have nothing to do with him. Any attempt on my part to try and get his father to see him regularly was met with sarcasm and me being told that I am trying to shove his son down his throat and force him to see him. When all I was trying to get him to commit to was one single weekend a month! I could see what was going to happen and I felt my son needed his father too. But the ncp was NOT interested in that relationship and I can only do so much. I was just as powerless then as I would be now to try and force my son to go and visit these people that are so screwed up that they could care less about how he feels about them sitting there and verbally trashing everyone he loves and cares about in his home. The people that ARE there for him. His father is now threatening me with a contempt charge because our son wont go. I have documented my position on the only time he asked to see him and I refused. I told him the issued with our son and asked him to talk to him and work it out. Tell him how sorry he was and it will go a long way. He was really hurt and upset from it. His father said it was a bunch of bullshi** and he didnt have to do a damn thing. I said then enjoy the christmas with out him. I wont be forcing him to go. I have not received any further requests to see him since that christmas in 2008. But you can bet he will go before the judge and play the poor victim ncp that has had a cp practice parental alienation. If they sit down and talk to our son for 5 minutes they will know the only one that said anything to hurt the father/son relationship was the FATHER. The court filing is the 2nd attempt at even mentioning the visitation in 2 years. That is ALL on him. The thing is that is has NOTHING To do with him wanting to see his son and everything to do with not wanting to pay child support. He never wanted him, he resents supporting him and when I told him he could relinquish his parental rights and my husband would be more than pleased to adopt him he said he would never allow that to happen. He is just a concept to him that he wants to control but not pay for and certainly not be inconvenience with. He feels he owes his son no such conversation, apology or discussion. His exact word were he is the adult and our son is the child, he HAS NO RIGHTS, HE GOES WHERE HE IS TOLD!. Since he hasnt had to be a full time parent to any of our children their whole lives he has no concept of a healthy relationship with a child. I truly feel forcing him by phyical force to go with him would be a horrible thing to do to him. Especially since he has a very VALID reason for not wishing to be there!

        2. Lola says:

          Good for you, Dan. You’re absolutely right.

        3. Calling BS says:

          Your assertion is correct but predicated on the custodial parent’s cooperation for access. My ex has told me that I am not allowed to contact him!

  10. Erin says:

    I wanted to add that the last time my ex pushed for him to see him and this was 6 months after my son had come home so upset and I told my husband about how upset he was and how poor judgement he used is what he had said to our children, especially our young son who worries so much about me. At that time he told me to tell our son to “get over it!” and hung up the phone.

    The Christmas he told me to tell our son if he chooses not to come then he will get nothing for christmas from him or his parents (the father lives with his parents and has for the last 7 years. I did tell my son this which I thought might change his mind about wanting to go. He didnt. He said he didnt want anything from any of them anyway. He said they are all mean to him when he is there and all they do is put him in his room all day. Our son has ADHD and can be trying, but I have never needed to keep him in his room all day and I cant imagine that would be a great way to have a visit with the son you have only seen 6 days in a year! Nothing he does fosters a positive relationship with him. Rest assured if he would sign the papers and terminate his rights our son would be so happy because he wants his step father to be made his real father. He loves him dearly and I am not sure it isnt more because of how awful the relationship really is with his father or if it is just them and how well they get along. He is actually closer to him than he is me! I am very glad he has him.

    But mostly understand that this 9 year old cared NOTHING about not getting his presents and did not want them. He never got to bring anything home that they bought him in the past. Any gifts they gave him had to stay at their house only. He gave up on ever seeing any of his games and his playstations ever again. They were never really his to begin with.

    I have a grandchild now and a step son. That is something I am huge about just from my experience with my ex and his family. Any gifts I buy go home with them!! PERIOD. There is nothing worse to me than giving your child the playstation they have always wanted and then telling them that they cant take it home with him, especially since even when he visited often that was only 6 times a year at the most!

    I am just saying there are sometimes VERY good reasons the child doesnt want to go and visit and they are valid.

  11. May I voice my sincere gratitude that my husband has never had any children. While I do have sympathy for others in this type of situation I am happy that I don’t have a dog in this fight.

  12. lea says:

    My situation is a bit different but am looking for advise. My ex and I started out with a custody battle. Our son was 13 (we both had children from previous marriage, all whom are adults now). My son was being very rebellious that first summer, dad would talk to me like a dog and my son would hardly acknowledge me. Around Aug. that year my ex had an argument with my son and told him not to come back until he cut his hair. Please note, prior to filing for divorce my ex took the child in for at least 80% of his hair cuts. I asked the ex if we could meet somewhere to discuss the situation and at first he agree to a place and time and then called back and said that I assumed that he had time to talk to be but he had things to do. I don’t know what really happened but I think that there were some respect issues and some issues with the new girlfriend and my son. Fast forward 2 years, son and I get along better, but still have issues. Let me add that my mother always trash talked my dad after they divorced so I go out of my way to NOT saying anything bad about my ex and have encourage their relationship. Dad has only seen our son a hand full of times since and this summer has started to visit with him about once a month. I let him visit whenever they work something out. My issue is this: my ex refuses to speak with me and goes through our 15 year old son to arrange visits. I have a hard time getting times as to when he will be picking him up and dropping him off and just today he showed up about 50 minutes early. It was not a big deal but I am tired of being walked on and what this is teaching our son. I am afraid that if I address the issue the ex will make negative comments to me to our son, it wouldn’t be the first time, and cause friction between us. I am torn between saying nothing and just dealing with his inconsiderate ways or addressing it with him and if he is still being difficult telling him he can work with the visitation schedule that HE put together. This would hurt our son because I am pretty sure that our son is not welcome at the girlfriends home that my ex lives in. Any advise?

  13. Amelie says:

    Also calling B#llsh!t! My two daughters live in a different state than their father; he doesn’t abuse them physically. He is entitled to visitation several times a year. He has not exercised it in years. He has called the girls twice this year. In his last conversation he blamed me for him not seeing them and said he wanted to see them, they said they didn’t feel comfortable seeing him after not seeing him or speaking to him for so long. When they were younger (now teenagers), I did everything I could to forge a relationship between them, but at their age they see he does not email, call, visit or pay for them to visit. They want nothing to do with him (I played no part in their decision). I couldn’t possibly force them to see him when he is having one of his fast fleeting ‘father moments’. All he does is disappear from their lives. They don’t know him, so I wouldn’t force them to go with a stranger, neither would I force them to see him knowing how damaging that would be for them.

    1. Amelie:

      Yours is not the situation I had in mind while writing this blog. Clearly a father who disappears and reappears into his children’s lives is not the type of father who should be blaming the mother when the children don’t want to visit. I was thinking more of the cases in which the children have a good relationship with their father until their parents separate and a bad relationship thereafter. I see such cases quite frequently and the consequences are tragic.

      1. single mom says:

        Please be aware that your generalization makes life more difficult for those of us who parent the children of disinterested non-custodial parents, especially when read by those who have limited or no experience with disinterested non-custodial parents. My daughter frequently gets upset because her father never calls her (even though she has her own cell and he does not in any way have to go through me) – and rarely returns her phone calls. He declines his visitation instead of taking responsibility for taking her to extra-curricular activities (yet he expects me to shoulder all of this responsibility and forego my fun time with her so that he can see her at his convenience.) Why is it that non-custodial parents are NEVER charged with contempt when they fail to take their child during court-ordered times just because it is inconvenient? This abdication of responsibility puts additional stress, expense and responsibility on the custodial parent – who would rather assume these extras than send their child into a situation where he/she is not wanted.

        Children know when they feel loved and wanted. I firmly believe that when a parent is working to make a child feel loved and wanted they will develop a relationship that the other parent can not interfere with.

        It broke my heart when she asked me why her dad doesn’t love her. I encouraged her to talk to him about it. There is nothing that I can say or do influence her perception of his actions. Something changed and he finally made the effort to trave 25 minutes to get her from an activity and take her to her best friend’s birthday. When I pointed out how this was a positive thing, she got mad at me.

        Unfortunately, not all non-custodial parents understand the responsibilities of parenting, or if they understand, choose to abdicate these responsibilities because they can.

        By the time a child is a teenager, the parent-child relationship is set. Why shouldn’t a child be allowed to choose which parent he/she wants to spend time with – especially if the child is doing well in school and staying out of trouble.

  14. Chelsie says:

    I have a 12 year old son and an X husband that will not communicate with me over anything relative in my son’s life, nor be truthful. I live 4 hours from my son and get him during vacations, not my choice. I know my son enjoys his visits with me. Court has allowed him to have one out a year to not visit, He is “telling” he is outing spring break and he will talk to me later about the other vacations. Here is what I think. CUSTODIAL parent should not give the child the choice to visit other parent. This should not be an option. His choices should be respectfully considered but decisions that should be made by an adult should not be left for the child to make. This last summer with court order that he be with me, officers were called to support my son and his father …4 times this last summer I went and proseeded to beg my son as if I were the child and he the adult for him to spend time with me. I have not seen a ounce of support from his father nor has he encouraged my son to have a relationship with me. By his actions I think they are reflected onto my son and he should require that he visit his mother so I can not help but think much of it is the custodial parents responsibility in seeing visitations are followed through with.

    1. Lola says:

      A child’s opinion is important. Ask the custodial parent if you can talk to the child about why they don’t want to see you.

  15. shannon says:

    I have a 6 year old who refuses to see his father, to the point he hinds and makes him self sick by getting so upset this has gone on for 4 years. His father on the other hand has never truly spent time with to get to know him even thou he takes him every other weekend and 3 weeks during the summer. This past summer our son was so upset to come home he started scratching at his own legs in order to get thru to his dad he wanted to come home. His fathers interest lie in me he uses our son as a pawn when he has him to get to me. I have now signed him for counseling to get to the underling problem as to why he doesnt want to go. we are going to court soon again i am trying to reduce the visits till after therepy hopefully. In my mind as a custodial parent i can not create the bond that they they need to build nore can i build that trust he needs with his dad that in my eyes should be up to him to do as a father.

  16. Courtney says:

    I am newly married, for almost a year now and my husband has a son from a previous relationship. From a relationship that was over way before I met him, but once the mother the custodial parent found out that he married someone (me) she up and disappeared for months, changed her phone number completely snatched his son out of his life. This went on with no contact or anything for about three months and when she was ready to ask for money she contacts him and asks for money but still wont allow my husband to see his son. No vistitation or child support payments are court orders as of yet. I advised my husband to himself on child support and file for visitation because she isnt civil at all. Its sad, because sometimes it is the custodial parent and it hurts me so becuase I am a product of this myself when my parents were divorced.

  17. James says:

    Me soon to be ex moved out in July of last year. She left without any forwarding address or contact info. She took my 9 year old daughter with her. Had a temporary hearing where it was voluntary visitation and child support. I was unemployed at the time. The mediator said it was a case of Parental Alienation. My ex has not promoted any realationship with my daugher. All my ex says is that my daughter does not want to see me. There is a history of mental illness in her family. It’s pretty sad when someone continues to lie to the court and her attorney. When we were together I was the main caregiver for the child.

    I am now going to take my ex back to court to become primary custodian of my daughter. I believe a child should have both parents in there life. It is the responsibility of the primary custodian to facilitate that relationship. Children are easily influenced by who they are around everyday.

  18. Dawn says:

    How is my husband suppose to “force” a 13 year old child to get on a bus with her mother when she doesn’t want to go?Pick her up?Drag her?Excuse me,why should he be the one doing it?Let her mother drag her.The non custodial mother has already accused him of being violent.Yes she will do her chores and if dad or I (her step mother) tell her too.She will go to bed or do her homework.We have taught all our children that they have responsibilities just as we all do.We have also taught her to do what is RIGHT not what is easy.She has reasons for not seeing her mother and they are between her mother and her.We do encourage her to talk to her mother and to see her mother.She chooses not too.In time she many be ready to,but for right now her decision is made.How can we tell her not to let people bully her then turn around and bully her into doing what she feels is WRONG.Not “not gonna eat my veggies” wrong,allowing someone who betrayed you,lied to you and about you,to dictate your life wrong.As was said before it is the responsibility of the non custodial parent to fix the relationship.He and I have no control over their relationship nor would we want any.
    How do you think it feels to be a child who knows that if they do not go with this person,who for what ever reason they do not want to be around,their custodial parent will be punished?I can tell you how it feels cause I was there.It is standing in front of the nastiest BULLY you have ever had to face.One who can put you parent in jail if you will not sacrifice yourself.Let me tell you it doesn’t make one too fond of lawyers or judges at all.

  19. Cheryl says:

    Here’s what I can tell you…when my husband and I went to pick up his kids one day, they were 9 and 11, they refused to get into the car and go with us. After several minutes of listening to my husband try to reason with the kids, I told him to just leave it. That we would call our attorney in the morning. Come to find out, I did the right thing. Evidently in this state, if you so much as lay a hand on a child at that age, they can have you arrested for unwanted touching as well as assault. There’s not much you can do. Not unless you want to run the risk of going to jail. Yup…that always look good in a hearing for visitation. The attorney said it would have played right into the hands of their mother and that in all likelihood, that’s exactly what she was hoping for. Now we’re dealing with our 7 1/2 year old grandson. And he hates seeing his father. And my daughter’s boyfriend is not better. I made a police report, but she lied and told them I was telling the child what to say about his father and her boyfriend. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Now, all I can tell him, is just try to hang in there, that in just a couple of years, he’ll be able to say no to all of it. We live in a state without grandparents rights, so I have to be very careful how I handle things so as not lose contact with him as we are his only safe place to fall. He’s a sweetie pie and I wouldn’t trade that little guy for the world. I’m up this late because I’m researching legal rights of 7/8 year olds. So far, not finding much of anything. I have to find him something…..

  20. Tracey says:

    My stepdaughter is 14. She told my husband that she wants to live with us. My husband and his ex-wife have alternating week custody. If my stepdaughter refuses to go with her mom, how is my husband supposed to force her into the car with her mom? At some point a parent cannot force their child to go with the other parent without causing physical and emotional damage. We have encouraged her to talk to her mom about her feelings in order to work things out. But at the end of the day, if she decides not to go, how can we make her?

  21. brandy says:

    i would like to find a support group for those of us parents whom have done the right thing and still get punished…my son was only 1 wheni divirced m y ex..married the love of my life and he has raised my son as his own. My son is now 11 and doesn’t want anything to do with his bio father..we just recently had a court hearing where he was trying to find me in contempt of the visatation order becasue in winter of 08 he ahd a warrent issued for his arrest, hid out from it until christmas of 2010 served sixth months and a day after he got out had me served w papers…well the judge saw right through him, found me not guilty but did want us to try visatation again…i am having my attorneys to file modification so the visits can be supervised but have to let my son go until we can get before the judge again…my ex is honestly a worthless person, owes me well over $20,000 in child support, has a really bad drug problem and anger issues and i really feel something needs to be changed in the system…we have begged him to allow my husband to adopt my son but of course he says i will fight you on it …it’s fine we can go spend all this money and win in the end becasue i truly fill the best interest of the child is to be with me, his stepdad whom he calls his dad not the ex and 3 sisters…he has had any contact with my ex in over three years and now i am forced to through him into the loins den…i am just praying to god we get a quick court date and can finally rid my ex of the little rights he has still left…no job, no car, no dl, no house of his own muches off of his sisters and that is not someone i would call a responsible parent….and the drug problem is bad he has even admitted it to my husband on several occasions….so i just would like to find a support group or someone i can talk to about this that maybe has been in this situation before…thank so much and looking forward to talking with someone!

  22. Erin says:

    I wanted to give an update. We went to court on the contempt charge my husband filed against me. I wasn’t able to get an attorney due to my husband being laid off and me with only disability as an income. He had the same attorney he has had in several hearings where he was found in contempt by the AG office for not paying child support at times for years.

    The judge appointed me an attorney due to the jail time being involved. That attorney spoke to me and our daughter from the marriage who is a 20yo, married with a 6 month old of her own. After speaking to her he had the full picture and asked for a continuance. He said he couldnt represent me but helped me type up the motion to file with the associate judge to modify the visitation to being supervised only by the court and to modify custody to me having sole custody instead of joint in the interest of the child. I filed it and we had our court hearing earlier this month. I still had no attorney and had to do it on my own against him having one. Well I got everything I asked for. After testimony where my ex lied repeatedly. After the last hearing where he saw my daughter there he sent her and her daughter (who he has also never seen) a birthday/Christmas present. He sent it to our home where she lives with us and her brother. When I brought this up and then asked him what he sent his son for Christmas he stated he “donated a bicycle in his name). When asked for a receipt for these bicycles (he claims he did this for the last 3 years) he of course had none. Even though he actually saved a receipt for a $7.00 shirt he bought our son at one of his rare visits and gave it to the judge to knock of his 13K support arrears.

    I was lucky to have an informal judge as well as one that saw through his lies. I was asking the court to require counseling with him and our son and ONLY when the counselor believes that it will be emotionally safe for or son to be forced if necessary to go will he have court supervised visits. Also, I asked that HE pay for it. His father actually stated he thought it was crazy and that he felt he just needed to take him to a ballgame and it would all be fixed. I said no..that might have fixed it had he had the where with all to do this 3 years ago when the whole thing happened. But then a phone call was too much to do.

    He is now required to go to counseling and also go to counseling WITH our son. He is required to pay for both separate for both of them as well as counseling together with a particular counselor that specializes in ADHD children and children from “abusive parents”. You see while she may have listened to me and believed me, she had to weigh that with the fact that we have a poor relationship. However, she could see clearly that our daughter was telling 100% the truth and even when it contradicted her fathers testimony. Since she is an adult, she felt her own opinion about the relationship her brother had with his father held a lot of weight. Also because she was there and saw it first hand. She said that once the counselor felt enough progress had been made that our son would be “comfortable” in the presence of his father she would allow court supervised visits. When he asked how long that would go on. Her answer was “As long as it takes for your client to learn how to treat his children in a nurturing way and how to speak to them in their presence. Your client set this all in motion with his own behavior with his children. Your client has charged the mother with parental alienation. I have only heard testimony of alienation practiced on his part by his statements to his children about the mother.”

    He is also having to go to a 3 month parenting class.

    The thing is, I was told by his attorney while we were waiting in the hall for court to start once he saw I had no attorney and was pro se, that he would be sending me the requests for visitation following the hearing and the police would be at our home if required. Yes, that is how you make a kid go to dad’s! Threaten him or his mom with jail! Why not make a phone call to him instead? That he never even tried. The attorney assumed that me on my own was no threat. The thing I had on my side was the TRUTH. He never even alleged a single time in his contempt action of ONE TIME that I turned him away for visitation. Why? Because he never even tried to pick him UP. I had plenty of witnesses to prove that he didnt.

    This is just being posted as a follow up. We still have the follow up contempt hearing to go to later this month where I DO have an attorney. That one doesnt worry me at all. The judge we went before actually wrote on the recs that “Based on testimony given by the father, mother and witnesses the father abandoned his son.
    Due to emotional abuse on the fathers part as well as negative statements regarding the mother, visitation is being suspended pending intense counseling for the child and parenting classes for the father. If Father follows ALL of counselors recommendations will visitation begin. Visits are to be court supervised till court deems no longer necessary”

    I learned several things. One, telling the NC parent on the phone the child wont go is NOT contempt. Before it can even be CONSIDERED contempt (and this is subjective on the courts part) the NC parent must actually come to your home to pick the child up.

    I also learned that even without an attorney if you are there before the court, have the truth on your side as well as many witnesses and make sure you have a few impartial ones you CAN get justice. Keep ALL communication between you. One of the things that helped me the most was an email between us regarding the Christmas directly following the final straw between my ex and our son. It was dated, but mostly it was proof of what was happening AT THAT TIME in lieu of me telling the court what happened 3 years later. The judge actually commented on that. I even told the judge that I was fully agreeable and even requesting our son to be interviewed by court services. If this was something she felt necessary to clarify anything I would be glad to make him available.

    My ex’s attorney even made an argument about my ex having to pay for the counseling. He felt that I should pay since I was the only one that felt it necessary. This really ticked off the judge because she said “Actually it isn’t JUST the mother. I believe it is necessary as well. The mother had nothing to do with the deterioration of the parent/child relationship. That rests on your clients shoulders and therefore the cost does as well.”

    Don’t give up guys. If there is a VALID reason for the child not visiting the NC parent forcing the child to go is NOT the answer. If there is a breakdown between the NC parent and child and it is something that CAN be fixed, offer to have the NC and child go to counseling. Send it in WRITING. This shows that YOU as the CP are in fact doing all you can to help. It isnt our responsibility to FORCE the child to go, but it is our responsibility to use our influence to help heal the rift as well as heal the child.

    I know my ex won’t be a part of the counseling based on past experience. He will do as he always has and walk away. I am however, after talking to the counselor the judge recommended and finding his insurance will cover it, taking our son there for his OWN benefit. I don’t think it will heal the rift between them, but I feel it isn’t healthy for our son to hate him either. I want to make sure he knows and understands that he deserved to be treated better. I am going to find a way to make this a positive thing for our son, one way or another. With or without the help of his father.

    1. Calling BS says:

      In my case, I’m the one insisting on joint counseling because of the damage she’s done.

  23. voice of experience says:

    Yea! Erin! I am so glad to read that the judge in your case was able to bring out your ex’s true colors.

  24. Erin says:

    Thank you! I was as well. I was terrified having never even been in a trial or hearing before, much less doing it pro se! I am very lucky I had an ex that showed his arrogance. When I said before he is a narcissist, I mean a pathological one. I knew not long after we married his thinking was wrong but they can be very good at making you think they are ok. That and I wanted to believe it. It was my mistake and I hate that my children had to pay the price as well.

    I was afraid but I knew one thing for sure. He would be able to maintain his composure as long as his attorney questioned him. However, when I was the one doing it, I had a feeling he would show his true colors and he did. Between his attitude, obvious lies and our daughters testimony the judge would have had to ignore a lot to rule in his favor. I hoped for the best, but I was surprised by how well she got the situation and made sure he knew it.

    We still have the follow up hearing with a different judge. I am not worried though. The attorney I spoke to said that it had no merritt before I had the other hearing and now based on the ruling in the other court even less.

    What is sad is the fact that he will see this as an assault on him rather than a wake up call to do right by his child. If it were me, I would be there at each and ever counseling session doing whatever I could do work things out.

    I have raised 5 children. All but my youngest are grown. We all had times where things were rough. Times they hated me I am sure when they were teenagers. Giving up was just never an option. Even when they wouldnt speak to me, I would just keep telling them I loved them and was here when they were ready to talk. When one of my daughters was really going off the straight and narrow, I had left that very message on her cell each and every day till finally she WAS ready and we worked it all out. It CAN be done. Easy..NO..but then nothing worth while ever really is.

  25. Manxman says:

    Greg:
    Your blog really describes my situation to tee. I have three children ages 15, 13 and 12. When my wife and I told the children about our impending divorce, my wife used the opportunity to blame it all on me, saying that she didn’t want a divorce, it was all “your father’s choice”, etc. The two older children immediately began rejecting me.

    (background: wife is a fundamentalist Christian who has home-schooled kids for the past eight years. (I am Catholic) Kids have been brought up to believe that divorce is “evil” and that only selfish, self-centered parents get divorces. Wife had resisted my insistence on ending homeschooling and other significant child-rearing issues. I was very concerned that my children were being raised in a very insular environment with a marked distrust for the outside world. Our frequent clashes over these issues ultimately led to my decision to end the marriage.)

    Once I moved out of the house, the two older children refused to have any contact with me. when I would call the house, nobody would answer. When someone would answer, once they heard my voice they would hang up the phone. My younger child tells me that this is done with mom’s knowledge and no punishment. I have been lied to about the existence of children’s cell phones (I’ve been told they don’t exist) and e-mail addresses. The only way to contact the children is to physically drive over to the house unannounced but that’s no guarantee since my wife meet me at the door and tell me the children don’t want to see me.

    The younger child would come to see me and spend time with me and all was good. (in fact, his insistence on having a good relationship with me has put him at odds with his siblings as well as his mother and, for the last month, he has been living with me full time) However, when it became apparent to me that my wife was not encouraging a continuing relationship between me and the two older children, I filed a request for the court to appoint minors counsel who in turn crafted a temporary visitation plan calling for alternating weekends and midweek visitations along with reunification therapy. My younger child gladly comes to see me. However, the older two almost universally refused to obey the visitation order and have expressed outright contempt for me as well as the court, minors counsel and the reunification therapist. Mom, who heretofore has been able to make the kids do whatever she wanted with a stern glance, would just stand there, shrug her shoulders and say that she couldn’t make them obey. It was all for show—a big act.

    Mom even hijacked the reunification therapy. The court order made me responsible for picking up the kids and taking them to therapy. As you might expect, the two older children refused to get in my car. Minors counsel told mother that she was responsible for bringing the children to therapy unless they got in the car, obviously thinking that this would force her to read to children the riot act. However, it appears that this is what she had in mind all along: controlling transportation to and from the sessions.

    The kicker came with a trumped up child abuse claim which was investigated by CPS. Shortly after Mom’s CPS complaint, mom unilaterally deviated from the visitation plan and told our youngest child “you’re going to live with your father” . Apparently our youngest was being accused of being “a traitor” for agreeing to continue his weekend visitation with me even though his sibling and the mother had accused me of child abuse. Sending one child to live with the parent that she was accusing of abuse was not lost on the CPS investigator who told minors counsel that if mom pursued the complaint, she would recommend that custody of all three children be given to me.

    After four months of almost no visitation and a bogus child abuse report to CPS, I had finally had enough and asked for a full custody evaluation. Minors counsel, who originally poo-pooed my initial complaints of parental alienation, now believes that mom is actively working against reunification. Having said that, mom is very smart and manipulative and is careful not to be overt in her alienation. my two older children are, unfortunately, willing accomplices. During therapy sessions they he expressed opinions that I have heard my wife express 100 times in different contexts. The children’s mouths are moving, but it’s her voice that I’m hearing.

    I am now looking at a $20,000 custody evaluation which, at the end of the day, will likely mirror the visitation plan crafted by minors counsel at the beginning with no guarantee that the children will obey the recommendations. However, the evaluation report will likely make some concrete findings with respect to mom’s alienating objectives/conduct. At the hearing where the judge ordered the custody evaluation, the judge even raised the specter of dependency court if the children refused to obey.

    Minors counsel told me in private that he was not in favor of recommending that I have full custody of the two older children—-not because I am a bad parent, but because he is fearful that they will continue to make false abuse claims against me. He did tell the judge that the two older children express opinions that “one generally sees being voiced by a spouse going through a divorce, not a child…”, i.e. “he abandoned us… he doesn’t deserve us… when he made the decision to divorce mom, he divorced all of us… he forfeited his family….if he really loved us he wouldn’t have left us”.

    The remedies seem pretty straightforward when a custodial parent is overtly interfering with visitation. The “plausible deniability” strategy is much more insidious.

  26. Jennybee says:

    I have read many of these blogs and find it interesting that there are good parents in the situation and there are bad parents in the situation. I filed for divorce before my daughter was born because my husband did not want children. After my daughter was born the only important thing to my ex-husband was not paying too much child support. He willing gave me sole legal and sole physical custody of our daughter in exchange for a child support amount that was only about 25% of what he should have been paying. He didn’t see her for more than 2 years after that. When she was 2 1/2 y/o, he threatened to kidnap her to Mexico, I placed a restraining order on him and we went back to court. The court was going to make him pay the full child support, so again he offered to me sole legal and sole physical custody in exchange for dropping the restraining order and a low child support amount. From that point the court ordered anger management, parenting classes and CPR classes since my daughter has severe asthma. The ex-husband began to visit infrequently, but, nontheless, visit. I never bad mouthed him or talked down to him. I never discouraged the relationship. When my daughter turned 9, the ex-husband starting calling her directly and asking her about visitation, if she wanted him to visit or not. Sometimes she would agree and sometimes she would say no. Fast forward to 2010, my daughter is 10 and I have lost my job. I asked the ex-husband for more support and he laughed so I took him back to court. He is married to an attorney so they announced, when the judge forced him to pay the full amount, that they would be seeking custody of the child. Now here we are in 2012 and the court is granting, after 12 years, shared custody. The relationship between him and my daughter has always been a strained one. When I offered suggestions on how to improve the relationship to the ex-husband, he told me to butt out. My daughter is beside herself with worry and grief over having to now go to visit him every other week after 12 years of not having to. The ex-husband treated her like an adult and allowing her decisions but now I have to force her to do something because a court has told her she has no decision. I am accused of parent alienation because he was a “passive participant” in our daughter’s life, but the court doesn’t see that he gave up the relationship because he didn’t want to pay money to help me with her. I believe this whole concept of parent alienation is a title that the justice system uses to make excuses for a “passive parent” to all of a sudden wake up, smell the coffee, and realize “hey, I think now I am ready to be a good parent”. The courts don’t realize the damage they do to a child. Children do see when they are loved and when they are an inconvenience and no matter that the court says they think it is in the childs best interest, they don’t really know and that is the courts way of saying, he, let there be 50/50 so that we can seem fair and not at fault.

  27. Susan Vescera says:

    I too have read these messages and I have to say for the most part I would agree about a child/children visiting the other parent-but it is not always in the best interest of the child.
    We are in the middle of a big mess now and its because our son does not want to visit his biological mother, his reasons?
    She insists that he has asthma and has to take medicine for it, she insists that he had pnuemonia (hospital records refute that diagnosis) and called CPS because we were withholding his medicine from him-
    She got some behaviour evaluation company to examine him and told them he had “Mental Problems” and was Handicaped-all of which can be verified otherwise.
    In five years she has called CPS twice on us-case is now marked Child Custody Battle and they will no longer respond to her on this issue, and the local police 3 times making accusations that again can be verified otherwise.
    She is living with a woman partner out in the middle of nowhere and he is a 15 year old who has never lived in that kind of a situation and is not interested in changing now.
    The biological mother will also tell you she has 1. Lupus,
    2. M.S, 3. Scolioisis and Cancer all at the same time-none of which has been diagnosed by a Medical Doctor, she goes on line and looks up symptoms and self diagnosis herself she works periodically as a vet tech and will help herself to the medicines there-of course we don’t have written proof but when she was with the childs father she would bring them home and take them.
    In addition to all of this she is a “proclaimed” psychic, she can talk to trees and they talk back, she talks to animals and they also talk back, she communicates with ghosts that have been in every house she ever lived in including a brand new one that was just built.
    I can keep going on but you get the point, NOT all cases are the same and NOT children need to be subjected to this kind of thing-and for the record she does take him out to her Psychic Healing Fairs, and Tarot Readings.
    We are headed back to court and hopefully this time the judge will listen to the facts and truth and not what she thinks they should hear.

  28. Babs says:

    I have a question… I have a 13.5yo son that refuses to go with his dad for visitation. They never had much of a realtionship when the ex and I were married. Matter of fact, dad never paid much attention to the son, well that is until the divorce. At that time, the ex started to try to do more with the son.

    One day, about 6mo after the ex moved out, my son flat out refused to go for his weekend visitation, citing that he hated his dad. Was visibly upset, crying and face beet red. I asked the ex to leave after an hour of questioning the boy as to why he felt this way. Eventually my son cried himself to sleep.

    A couple of weeks later, I had an appointment with a psychologist. He diagnosed my son with depression and anxiety. For 10 months we worked with the therapist. During that time dad only came to a couple sessions. It was advised we back off the overnight visits and dad should try visit with hopes of getting son to talk/communicate with him. There were maybe three times he came over. I had an open door policy ~he could come over anytime. He was invited to birthday dinners (son & step-daughter), Christmas, etc.

    We finally got the boy convinced in December 2011 to go for an overnight (girlfriends kids were there). This went ok. Then the ex decided he wanted to take him to g&g house for four days before Christmas, again th kids were there so it was ok. We got through January with weekend visits, and suddenly son refuses to go again. In January I took him to a psychiatrist to be put on medication for depression/anxiety.

    No the ex has taken me to court mediation for visitation contempt, we tried to work out a schedule, yet son refuses to go. The next step was to call CPS to complain the he had been to the dr thirty times in two years. And he hadn’t been to the dentist in over a year. Yes the doc number is right. He’s had gastro problems, pneumonia twice, ear infections, and ingrown toenails three times. Most if not all of these visits have required rechecks. Also other random doc visits. Now I’ve received another notice for a court hearing for contempt of court. All of this in less than thirty days.

    I have always encouraged a relationship with the father. I can’t physically force the child to go, and dad certainly won’t. I’ve taken away freedom, prized possessions, bribed, conned, and anything else I can think of to get him to go. The kids gets physically I’ll when dads around…headache, diarrhea, upset stomach.

    I should also mention the last time he went to dads in February, he tried to leave and walk home because dad wouldn’t return him prior to his drop off time. Dad called the police, and they brought him to my home.

    I am at my wits end. Dad and the therapist think he is just displaying defiant behavior. I don’t have a problem in any are besides dad. I do want them to build a relationship, I can’t figure out how.

    Any advice?

  29. Erin says:

    Babs,

    Boy does my heart go out to you! I have posted previously. I have a son with mod/severe ADHD and completely understand how hard it is to make a child do things when they are that set in refusal. The most difficult question in your situation is the “why”. Why is he so set in not going. If Dad is doing nothing that would harm him and it sounds like Dad is really trying here. I know you are doing all you can too.

    First, you cannot be in contempt if you are doing all you can and it sounds like you are. Unfortunately, if dad is not doing anything to cause this reaction from son, someone must reach him to make him understand he must obey the law. If not, your problems will only grow. You mentioned “kids” get physically ill when dads around. If this son is not able to adequately explain the feelings he has toward dad, maybe one of the others can? I guess what I am saying is if ALL of them are having a strong reaction like that, you may be able to learn why through a child that is better able to express what is happening.

    If he is not doing anything to cause this reaction something must be done to help it. The thing is at your son’s age, (I have raised 5 children all grown now but my youngest who is 12) they do defy STRONGLY. Sometimes for no other valid reason than they do not want to do it or have something else they wish to do. At his age, if he is not expressing an accusation of abuse (a valid one) then it sounds more like defiance. If there was abuse, at his age he would be well able to tell you. It could have to do with the GF and her kids even. He may have an issued with them. One that developed in his last visit.

    My strongest suggestion is document document document… Take him to each and every counseling session and do everything you can. Dad should be in counseling with him as well.

    The judge in our case ordered finial counseling. It is with a counselor that specializes in ADHD children. I would shop around. This type of counseling is geared to the parent being very involved in the process.

    In my case Dad never bothered with coming as I knew would happen. The good thing is son is getting help to express how he feels and can work through them.

    I feel for you. Sometimes when dealing with that age, the more you push the more the dig in their heels. That is why I would press more counseling. Have him there with Dad as well.

    Good luck

  30. Teele says:

    Off the record, my 13 yr old girl doesnt want to go home with her dad who is banging on my door. I have tried for the last 2 hours to get her to co-operate to go with him. She has begged him to let her stay. (she can’t stand living with him), but he has pulled some “fast ones”
    and got full custody. She lived withe since I left in March 2008 til Feb. 2011 and would not stay over night at his house. Both the therapist and the nutritionist (court ordered-even though she had been losing weight during the 6 months prior to Feb
    2011 and has gained 30 lbs since he took her) both have tried to convince him to allow her to live with me. I didn’t let him in because I felt she was too distressed, though I encouraged her to get dressed and go with him. Question is what is the right thing to do? And what course will he take? (although I think she is safe there, she has told me and Kent Tousaint, the therapist that she doesn’t feel safe there. Also I explained to
    Karen (13yr old) that I would prefer that she sleep at her dads because of all the work I
    have. She refused. Sorry to bother you (you can bill me for a response) but we’re scared emotionally.
    He is still here and called the police. Then what?

  31. tim says:

    I have 2 questions, would it be possible for a child at the age of 12 not have a to go to the non custodial parent for visits if the child was being Verbaly Abused and the child was always getting ate up by bed bugs, the non custodial parent has lived in an unclean Environment for the past 4 years and has had Dog and Cat feces on the floor of her home, I tried talking to her about her issues but she will not cooperate with me, her home smells really bad and the children do not want to go back to their mothers, I had found out that recently that if the kids bring back the bed bugs to my apartment that I could get evicted and have to pay $300.00 for them to get rid of the bugs, so could I be held in contempt for not letting the children go back to their mothers? I had made every attempt to let her see the kids until she got rid of her bugs.

    1. Calling BS says:

      If all of this is true, call CPS and file a complaint.

  32. Teele says:

    Ok so the police were just here and took our daughter who was sleeping and they told her to get up and dressed that if she didn’t they might have to take her into protective custody, that they could take mom to jail. How hard would it have been for the author of this site to respond and to tell me that was a possibility and save me that experience?

  33. Erin says:

    Teele, I obviously cannot speak for the attorney here, but in a case as yours the police have discretion in how they handle things. He does have custody of her and a legally enforceable document for them to act as they did. I know you had to know this. Your only recourse would be to go to court and get custody changed. That is the ONLY recourse you have. She had to know that she cannot just make up her own rules. This isnt a case of you having custody and her refusing to go for a visit. This is a case of her refusing to go home. Totally different LEGALLY. Not saying either is right. Just that the custodial parent has much more standing with the police to take action. They could have charged you with parental kidnapping.

    You need to go to court. You need to file a motion in the court. You should be able to get a pretty fast hearing. I got mine within only a few weeks. This is enough of a change to allow this to happen AND with her age it is something the court would certainly listen to her own requests. After 12 the courts do consider the wishes of the child. It isnt a slam dunk but it is certainly considered. That with the support of her counselor should be a very compelling case.

    I know you are frustrated. I would be too. However, you need to get proactive if you want to change things. It sounds like your daughter is looking to you do to do this for her. She would still have to go and see him for visits but would be able to live at your home. At her age it is hard enough he may actually be ready to do it unless he is still so angry with you that he is more interested in putting it to you than caring about what his child needs. Unless there is a strong reason for the court to disagree with your daughter and her counselor, I would imagine the change would be allowed.

    Good luck to you. There is nothing more painful and frustrating than dealing with custody issues. I know from experience.

    Sincerely,
    Erin

  34. Rachel says:

    I agree with Greg’s assessment completely, as I have lived this first hand.

    My husband and I have three children from previous relationships; myself – twin six year old girls, my husband – one six year old boy. We also have a two year old son together.

    My husband has fought tooth and nail to see his son for the last three years. The mother has claimed all sorts of horrific things against my husband, including that he was a rapist, drug addict, and alcoholic (all proved false), all in attempt to keep him from having any contact with his son. Her reason? To keep her lucrative 2k per month child support.

    My husband endured thousands of dollars in lawyers fees, supervised visitation (at our expense), random alcohol tests (at our expense), and drug testing. All to get his son every other weekend and alternating holidays. His ex lied about the daycare costs in order to extort more money out of him via wage garnishment for the daycare add-on, and refused to turn over documents for six months showing how much the daycare really cost (it ended up being significantly less than she claimed). When we attempted to collect back the thousands of child support overpaid to her, she threatened to sue us for her attorney fees.

    I’m am relating all of this to establish a framework to show how extremely vindicative and manipulative this woman is. Recently, she started taking my husband’s son to a therapist behind his back, alleging he was sexually abused. She did not inform my husband of this for over a month, in clear violation of my husband’s rights for in accordance with joint legal custody. My husband, ever the good guy, attempted to work with her on this and join in the therapy sessions with his son, during which she withheld visitation for three months stating his son “did not want to see him”. When me husband stated he was going to have his court order enforced, she filed an ex parte motion in retaliation, setting him up to look as if he was the abuser to the courts to get her motion granted with the aid of a therapist who is also her personal friend.

    Now my husband is forced to endure “supervised” visits by her, and she still insists that his son does not want to see him. However, I attended the last visit (which she did NOT like) and saw no evidence of anxiety. He laughed the whole time, was so excited to see his dad, and was talking non-stop. He voluntarily hugged him, held his hand, and wanted to be by his side the whole time. When the visit came to an end, he almost started crying and told his dad “he didn’t want him to leave.” Does this sound like a child who doesn’t want to see his father. NO! But at six years of age, he is easily manipulated by his mother. Parental Alienation is all too real of a syndrome, especially when our courts make is so easy for mothers (and fathers, if primary custodian) to wield complete and total control over their children’s fragile minds. My husband’s ex has NEVER been supported of his relationship with his son; she has made it clear the only purpose my husband has served was to be a sperm donor and now a paycheck. She doesn’t want him in his son’s life, and is now trying to manipulate the courts, using their child as pawn, to remove my husband from his son’s life yet again. I have seen firsthand the devastation and destruction a custodial parent can have on a child’s relationship with a noncustodial parent, and it is definitely valid and all-too-real.

    (I have also been on the other side as well, as my twins’ father was a deadbeat who didn’t even bother showing up for the court date that granted me sole legal and physical custody. My husband ended up adopting my daughters when they were four years old, and he is the only dad they know. Recently, their bio father has come back into their life and I have encouraged them developing a relationship with him. So before anyone says otherwise, I have experience on both ends of the spectrum. And I know a good father from a bad one, as well as good custodial parent from a BAD custodial parent. And yes, they do exist).

  35. Erin says:

    Rachel,

    I do not (at least sincerely hope not) think anyone including myself thinks for a minute there are not custodial parents that alienate the children from the non-custodial parent. My brother has actually experienced this and did not get to see his son for 8 years. It is a very real problem. I think what I and others like me are trying to say is that the courts need to be careful in this area to make sure that they are not putting the child in a situation that can be dangerous to them either physically or emotionally just to follow a blanket rule.

    We cannot place a single child into a situation that is possibly dangerous to them emotionally or physically. I realize that there are situations where custodial parents lie. I just cannot justify one single child being placed in a bad situation to prevent the other. The courts will be placed in a fact finding situation. However, till they can make absolutely sure that the situation is handled in a way that prevents damage to the child, they have the responsibility to err on the side of caution.

    This is why when I was in that situation I requested joint counseling before ANY visits would be reinstated. In my opinion this should be the gold standard in this situation. It will allow the parent/child relationship to be examined, promoted and give the court a better idea of the best direction to go in the best interest of the child.

    I further believe that if a parent is found to make numerous serious false allegations toward the other parent, custody should be amended immediately. In that situation it is the custodial parent that is the most damaging to the child. Not the non-custodial parent. If the cust parent is aware they would face such serious consequences, hopefully it would prevent them from going that direction. Then again, there has to be something pretty unstable to do that to your own child.

    Simply put, you must love your child more than you hate your ex. Our responsibility as custodial parents is to promote a positive relationship with the other parent. However, the custodial parent does not carry the full burden in that area. The non-custodial parent is responsible for promoting it as well by being there consistently and completely for the child(ren) they parent. When they do not do their part, they risk losing any rights to call foul when the child no longer wishes to visit. They cannot then blame the custodial parent for the lack of relationship.

  36. I call bullsh*t says:

    I call bullsh*t on forcing children on this. I understand a lot of the time it is the non costodial parent but in the cases of emotional abuse like some1 else has mentioned it leaves no marks and it’s hard to determine! I’m trying to modify my order per my 10 years request but no lawyer will touch it they say I have it good because I get to supervise it and taking it bad in court will just backfire on me. It’s total bull to the point where my son wants to talk to the judge but will only do so in judges chambers because he’s terrified what his “daddy” will do to him for saying it. We’ve even tried to get protective orders because his father has thrown objects at him for discipline. It left a bruise CPS was involved my son, not me told them what happened and you know what the judge decides? If his father felt throwing something was a correct disapline than to bad for my son case closed! So even physical abuse they do nothing. So instead my son and I are forced over there week after week not knowing if we are getting nice daddy or crazy lunatic daddy, daddy who pays attention or daddy who sits n reads the paper the entire time. But it’s his time he can use it how ever he wants, but let me dare say no you can’t see him because I’ll go to jail! This guy has a rap sheet a mile long domestic. Violence and all that’s why I sit in on visits but it does no good he does it in front of me! He has more damn control over my son and my life than I do. I always have to be worried well i cant do this or that i cant take him here or there or you know who will Start crap if ge finds out, what kind if life is this for my child? It’s just a shame the court does nothing until the child is already broken

  37. David says:

    Ok, I’ve read through a majority of the post here and no one really hasn’t addressed the issue of a GOOD noncustodial parent (like me). I’m retired military and kept in contact with my daughter all the time (now 14 and when the mom would let me). I only had 1 form of contact and that was the mothers cell # often being told she didn’t have a home #, e-mail address or internet. Ever when my daughter had a cell of her own I couldn’t get the number Who was I to call that bluff? Not the courts either. Nowwww the mom has recently passed and guess what i’m the full parent and my daughters mothers family is being stand offish, not answering my calls. Especially after they have known i’d be down to pick here up in a couple of weeks. At first she said she wanted to to with me now she has a change of heart and says she doesn’t. As stated in one of the posts above, who knows what shes being told. All I know is she’s on under my custody and we’re looking forward to having her full time.

  38. Mindy says:

    My husband has 2 daughters, currently ages 16 and 19. I have 2 children as well, ages 18 and 19. We have been a family of 6 for 9 years. Approximately 4 years ago, my husbands youngest began fighting visitation (minimum 2 weekends per month). She would call the morning of and ask to stay home (birthday party, movie night with her friends, just didn’t feel like coming over, etc.). In the beginning my husband would agree but ask for an “exchanged weekend” so that they didn’t lose any time together. After a short time, (couple months) the “exchanged weekends” would get cancelled by daughter or mom. When the requests continued, my husband put his foot down and said no. He explained that he understood how important the “social events” are in her life (at the time she was 12) but that she also needed to understand how important their time together is as well. That it’s unacceptable to commit to something and then back out because you have a better offer. He was trying to teach her accountability and respect, and he explained this to her. This continued and is still happening to this day (she is a 16 yr old senior in high school). Her mother does not agree with my husband, she thinks that her social time is very important and that if their daughter doesn’t want to come over then she is not going to make her. (keep in mind, we live 40 minutes away). My husband attends every event that his daughter is involved in, always has. We always plan family events, outings, game nights, etc. My step-daughter and my husband attended 2 counseling sessions last year, where she didn’t say a word and after the 2nd visit told her mother and father that he might as well cancel any future sessions because she won’t be going. Her mom does not include my husband in any rule making, important decisions, punishment, etc. She told him his opinion doesn’t matter, that she will always have the final say. My step-daughter has been caught lying, sneaking out, cheating at school, manipulating, she has stolen some of my clothes (got caught and admitted it). She has the ability to be a scholar student but admits that she just tunes out or just isn’t feeling it at times. My husband scheduled a parent teacher conference for the classes she has less than acceptable grades in and asked her mother to be there, she said “I’m not going, they won’t tell me anything I don’t already know” so he attended with my stepdaughter. The teachers said she is pleasant and has the ability to exceed but is too social, doesn’t apply herself, waits until the last minute to cram for tests and puts extracurricular activities first. She is a cheerleader and her mom is the coach. Last semester of her junior year we laid out some expectations and explained how very important this semester was regarding grants/scholarships for college. Basically on any quizzes or tests, if she received lower than a C we suspended her cell phone (it is on our plan). That is the only punishment we could think of because her mom doesn’t support anything else and won’t involve my husband in the parenting. At the end of the semester she finished with some D’s, my husband reminded her of the consequences and she lost her cell phone for the summer. The summer visitation was very difficult for my husband because of cheer and she worked as a lifeguard which was every weekend. Unfortunately there was great difficulty in getting “makeup time”. When the schedule for September was being made, he had requested 3 weekends rather than 2 to somehow make up for loss of time over the summer and the upcoming months because his time will be limited again due to cheer and dance practices and performances at football games, etc. The answer was no, not from his daughter but from her mom. My husband asked why and she said because “she only has to spend 2 weekends per month with you.” He said that the papers say a “minimum” and she proceeded by asking which 2 weekends work best for him. He has had difficulty over the years ever getting more than 2 weekends, she refuses. He asked why she fights so hard for him and their daughter to spend time together and she didn’t answer. Last week my husband and his daughter were discussing back to school, expectations, etc over the phone. He asked if she had any chapter tests coming up and she said she took one today and the grade should be posted on Friday. He said great, I will keep my eye out … how do you think you did? She said, not sure. On Friday he checked her grade and she got an 83% so he called to congratulate her and tell her we lifted the suspension on her phone. He texted her Saturday and Sunday, just random texts with no reply so he called the house last night and asked how come she wasn’t replying, she told him because she doesn’t need that phone anymore, mom got her a phone and added her to her plan in March (the first time her phone was taken last semester for a week). The conversation continued, she used profanity, raised her voice, told him she didn’t want to come over anymore and hung up on him. He tried to call back several times and the answering machine picked up. We are at a loss. We have no clue what to do anymore. He has tried counseling, adjusted the visitation agreement mutually last year, brought law enforcement with him when he was denied visitation…..HELP!

    1. Boyka says:

      The mother of the daughter obviously has issues. Mother sounds self centered. Very sad to hand down traits like that to the daughter. Hang in there I just hope the younger ones don’t take on the older ones attitude. But all in all I blame the mother (Custodial) parent. Sounds like she bought the daughter a cell phone when the father took it away- nice- Children need discipline and most females don’t realize that…..kids have things way to easy sometimes. Seems you guys are doing the right things. Keep workin at it!

  39. FolsomMom says:

    My son is 6 and does not want to do overnights with my X. I know there is no physical abuse but my son is just very bonded with me and wants to just spend the day with dad and sometimes on the weekends spend the night. He misses me so much that he cries the next day at school after spending the night with his dad. It is now got to the point it is interfering with his schooling and he looks exhausted. The X is wanting 50/50 custody because he is all about the money. When our son is with him he does not spend quality time with him… he drags him to the gym and leaves him unsupervised where he can be abducted. When our son is with him at his residence he lives him unsupervised outside. I fear for our son’s safety but I have heard it is very difficult to get time reduced here in California unless his dad is basically burning cigs out on him or beating him to a pulp because they are so worried that the father is not getting his custody??? I don’t know what to do… I have got video evidence of my X working out in the gym and my son playing outside next to a main road where he could easily be abducted. The attorney said I could get into trouble for stalking…. I found this to be ridiculous but that is how crazy the court system is… any suggestion on what I could do to make sure my son stays safe???? PLEASE any suggestions welcome

    1. hopeless says:

      Your story mirrors mine in almost everyway, but I live in NL. The lawyers and court tell you you can’t take any action without proof and when you get the proof you can’t use it as you might be charged with harrassment or stalking or some such bull and if you have a criminal record your own access and custody may be negatively impacted. My prayers are with you and all children and parents in the same situation, it’s a heavy cross, “my own life sentence” as I see it with our children bearing the brunt of the punishment. God help us.

  40. Sakky says:

    This blog is bullsh&t. Thank God for people like MJ who realize that every situation is different. Assuming that the custodial parent is the villian in all of these situations is warped and so is assuming the children will always benefit from visiting the non custodial parent.

  41. Boyka says:

    Hey All,
    I have been in a 3 year relationship with my boyfriend. He has an 18 year old and twins age 14 (boy & girl) who are currently refusing to go to his house. I asked my boyfriend why and he said it’s because they don’t want to to work. He has a farm. The kids haven’t been to his house for over 2 weeks. I do my best to not get into the middle of things for they are not my kids but all I keep asking myself is why wouldn’t the mother make the kids go. Apparently they do not have any chores or what the kids would call “work” while they are at their mother’s. I have witnessed the kids at their father’s and they leave dirty dishes laying around, complain whenever the father asks them to do anything, then the threats come by the youngest that she’ll just go to moms, she hates it at her dads, she actually wrote letters to the father of how he’s trying to make her live his life. This farm he owns pays for many things for these kids. I am seeing spoiled selfish kids- am I wrong? Is the mother enabling them…oh and we don’t live together. I am a single mom of a 2nd year college student. I have done my share of spoiling my son- I know- I also feel my son is not very respectful to me sometimes because I have spoiled him- just hoping he’ll grow up someday and realize all I’ve done for him with an absent father. Do I just stay out of the whole thing about my boyfriends kids? Boyfriend tells me anytime I ask him about what his ex does in her house with the kids he tells me to ask her myself…advise? Custody is supposed to be 50/50…
    Thanks!

    1. Erin says:

      Boyka,

      I understand what you are saying. Even understand your concern. However, you are not even living with this man. The courts are very strong on the subject that even the step parent stay out of the situation between two ex-spouses and their children. You getting involved will not help the situation and in most likelihood would cause even more problems.

      If you really care for this man and it sounds like you do, you should support him and be there for him but stay as much out of it as you possibly can.

      1. Boyka says:

        Hi Erin,
        You are right. I don’t want to be involved anymore. I raised my only child by myself void of a father figure and my son’s doing great. 2nd year of college but trust me he has had his troubles. I am a single mom who’s son flew the coop and have found I’m spending my time trying to please my boyfriend & his kids and getting nothing in return. Hell I don’t even get thank you’s anymore… birthday presents for kids, buying hair dye for the daughter, christmas presents, arranging a week vacation the Keys for all of us, fixing/decorating the hunting shack for the kids prom party, picking kids up and giving them rides to and from the parents houses, driving the daughter to driving class, all this stuff and I can’t think of one nice thing he or his kids have done for me in well over 1.5 years. Recently his son was picked up by his mother from school for being depressed over his GF dumping him 3 weeks ago. Son missed basketball practice and my boyfriend wouldn’t have known a thing when it happened till his son didn’t come to his house that night, he wouldn’t have known about it if I hadn’t told him. So you see the kids have come to rely on me, care about them, and be there for any issues they want to talk about. So there seems to be this lack of communication between the parents so the kids tell me things…yet I asked the mother if her & I could talk sometime in order to make things better for everyone involved and her response was she didn’t want to come between me and her exhusband. Hell I didn’t even say anything about talking about my boyfriend. So the mother says she’d rather text with me…I’m not a texter in fact I think it is the most informal way of comm these days. Shoot I’m getting exhausted thinking of all this. I think I’ll just end the relationship, so tired of the drama & stress…life is not a dress rehearsal and way to short for dealing with this stuff. Either that or just separate myself from all of it for a while…will be hard I miss the kids and I definately will have a hard time when the kids come to me or look to me for help…ERRRRRRRR

  42. hopeless says:

    My 6 year old hates going with her father, despite my efforts in seeking counselling to deal with this situation it has not changed. On 2 different occasions Child Protective Services got involved I called once and I don’t know who reported him the 2nd time and their findings were that they had suspicions that she was being neglected while under her father’s “care”. My daughter attended counselling for almost 2 years and the end result was much the same, her father was found to be neglectful. Last month I had to take my ex to court to have him sign a passport form so I could take our daughter to Disney, the court ordered him to sign and provide a letter of conscent to travel. The judge (whom we stood in front of several times before) didn’t seem pleased that my only recourse was to take this matter to court and after a lenghtly review of the file stated “it is my belief that joint custody and 50/50 input in decsion making for the minor child should be left solely to mom”….” I don’t believe it practical nor does this court think it in the best interest of ‘jane’ that ‘Mr. Smith’ have input in the day to day matters or matters of health, religion or education, ‘Mr. Smith’ has demonstated too many times that he is unable or unwilling to put the best interest of his child ahead of his own wants and desires and this will undoubly affect the well being of ‘jane’ should it continue” Despite having said all this he stated that he would note it in the file to the presiding judge for review at a ending settlement conference. The settlement conference did not work out in the end and we ended up going through in interim process, where the above was read by the presiding judge. My ex was awarded joint custody, access and overnight access which he had never had in her six years, he was also exempted from having to provide a medical insurance card for our daughter, and I was told that if I wanted to have my maiden name on her birth certificate I had to go through a whole other process. At them time of this decision I provided the court with documentation that my daughter’s father, was in severe arrears with his child support payments, that he was under treatment for a mental medical condition and that he was under investigation for prescription drug abuse issue. The judge’s response was that it didn’t make him a bad parent and so the access etc was issued and was to start the following Tuesday. That was several months ago and he hasn’t shown up for a visist yet in fact he called to confirm her after school pick up but never showed up she was left her at school twice alone in the lobby and I had to leave work to pick her up. I filed with the court to have this order ammend to exclude the overnight access and to have his named removed from being able to pick her up at the school and despite notarized letters from the school counsellor, principle and our daughter’s teacher the judge stated that because he attended court ( he was present that day) showed that he had an interest in his child that the order remain in effect, that was 4 weeks ago and that was the last time we seen him. He hasn’t shown up for not 1 of his scheduled 12 access visits in that time. In a nut shell why shouldn’t my child at the age of 6 be heard why should she be forced into access visits with a person that is very nearly a complete stranger to her, a stranger would treat her better. DNA does not a good father make and apparently passing the bar etc does not a good judge make. Where’s the justice for my daughter, her father will turn up around Christmas with his poor “I hardly ever get to see her act” and I’ll have to force her to go or be found in contempt of a court order. So I say if a child can speak and says I don’t want to go then they shouldn’t be forced, it’s not like going to the dentist or doctors appointment where there are benefits. Forcing a child into an unhealthly situation can certainly have not benefits and cannot be in her best for her well being or welfare. When a child wakes at night crying in terror and gets up in the morning vomitting and diaherra begging not to have to go with the other parent and you provide proof of this to the court and the counsellors and other government bodies find the same why would a court find it in her best interest to continue these visits. Just my two cents based on the last 5 years of my life.

  43. Tara says:

    My 8 year old daughter cries constantly when she knows visitation with her father is coming up…she starts crying literally a week in advance! Than when she is over there, she calls me about 15 times a day, begging and crying for me to come get her (most times when she calls, doesnt matter what time it is, her father is asleep). I have been forcing her to go, but no longer feel that I should do so. The crying and desperation is just getting worse. Also, when my daughter was 3, she was “digitally’ molested by someone at their house. It was a huge ordeal, and she went to a year of counseling for it. And since she said it wasnt her father, but one of his friends(and she didnt know his name, mind you she was only 3) the CPS forced her to start visitation again. What am I supposed to do?! This is exactly how she was acting when she was 3 when she showed the counselor what had happened to her at visitation, and I am seeing the same behavior again. So I just force her to keep going, risking her safety and ignoring her cry out for help?!?!?!

    1. No. You file to limit the father’s visitation.

      All the custodial parents posting comments on this blog about how much their child hates visiting the other parent are missing the point. The point is that one shouldn’t unilaterally restrict the other parent’s visitation, but instead should petition the family court to limit the other parent’s visitation.

  44. Sometimes the crying before visitation is manipulation by the child. I once had a situation where I took a child for a visitation exchange. The bright, intelligent, eight-year-old girl cried before leaving her mother, telling the mother that she did not want to see her father, that she wanted to stay with the mother.

    When she got to her father’s house, she ran and jumped into his arms telling him how happy she was to be there and how she never wanted to go back to her mother. The child knew that I watched both scenes but she also knew that her parents hated each other guts and that she was making both of them happy.

    On Sunday, when got the child from her father and returned her to her mother, the exact reverse happened. She told her father she did not want to leave. She then told her mother how happy she was to be back home.

    Since that experience, I have given very little weight to a parent telling me that a child does not want to visit. My general belief is that when a child says that he or she does not want to visit, that it is a combination of parents who put their hatred of each other above any love for the child and a child who wants to please both parents and is manipulative.

  45. Che says:

    I have been trying to see my son for several years off and on. When the Father (custodial) finds it in his best interest to let me see him, he will. He feels that he can call the shots of when I get to be “Mom”. Recently I have fallen behind on child support (lost job), now I have a new job and making payments. I filed for Violation of Visitation and he had his lawyer issue a warrant for me being behind on support. I had to spend time in jail and almost lost my job, too.
    What can I do or say at the hearing for the violation of visitation to be enforced or perhaps have all the time missed made up?
    I feel that he had the warrant issued in hopes that I would not be able to appear in court for the hearing.

  46. Annoyed says:

    You want to know what’s bullsh*t? When a father abandons his child for more than 5 years and only decides he wants to see his child AFTER he’s been forced to pay support. What’s even worse and a bigger bunch of bullsh*t is when he has another child with someone else that he doesn’t support, doesn’t see, hasn’t sought visitation for and still comes for visitation with mine only because he was made to pay support. Looks a bit fishy when a parent only comes into the picture for visitation AFTER they’re ordered to pay. Yet that doesn’t count in court. You have strangers that know nothing making decisions that will impact a child for the rest of his/her life. Judges playing god.

    So worried about deadbeats and worried so little about vulnerable children being forced to keep company with a stranger. A parent isn’t someone that has sex and produces a child. A parent is someone that has ALWAYS been there and has ALWAYS put their child first. The garbage I hear about “I made a mistake” doesn’t fly when it comes to abandoning your own child. Shame judges don’t seem to give a damn about that. God forbid someone that walked away from their child be denied “parenting” time.

    1. If you didn’t want the father attempting a relationship with your then five year old child you shouldn’t have placed him on child support. It seems churlish to demand support from this father and then complain when he wants to visit.

      I suspect when you became pregnant, you didn’t want to develop a long-term relationship with the father and he didn’t want to be a father. You disturbed this equilibrium.

  47. Erin says:

    Greg,

    I have mixed feelings on the subject of support. I have a daughter who is now 26. Her father and I were only dating casually. When I became pregnant, he was not ready or willing to be a father. Now, he was also not ready or willing to help me in any way either to terminate the pregnancy or sign adoption papers.

    I made the choice to keep and raise her. Because I did this unilaterally, I felt it would be wrong for me to demand on the other hand he support her in any way. So I never demanded any support from him.

    At a point in my life I was too ill to work and needed government assistance. The thing is, in order to get any kind of help, they REQUIRE you to cooperate with the attorney general’s office to establish and enforce child support from the estranged father. I lied and said I had no idea who it was. Since I never put his name on the birth certificate I was able to get by doing this.

    What I am saying is to give the woman the benefit of the doubt here. You do not know the full situation. Also, please keep in mind another thing. Often when a parent that has not paid any support or parented a child in any way is forced to pay support, they retaliate in this way. I have gone through it myself very recently. Not saying it IS his motivation. No way to know what he really wants.

    My personal problem with this kind of situation is you have a father that has been absent in the child’s life in EVERY way. To now force a child into a regular visitation schedule to me seems not in the best interest of the child. I am absolutely NOT saying to not allow visitation. Just have supervised or final (sp?) counselling first. To give the child a safe place to get to know the father. Also, most often in a situation like this the parent will not follow through and become a parent in the way they should. So now you have added to the damage already done to the child by having them abandoned yet again, only this time they are old enough to remember it! My father was like this, I would be lucky to see him once a year at my grandmothers for Christmas. It did significant damage to me and my self esteem.

    This is why I feel the counseling is the best way. To test the waters, so to speak. See if the parent WILL follow through. Then if they do, everyone wins.

    Annoyed, I understand your anger. I really do. But you MUST love your child more than you dislike the father. Is it fair? No, it isnt. But it is what we as parent must do. We have to put them first. The only thing you can do is step back. Be there for your child to talk to about what they are feeling. If the parents only bad thing is they were not there for the child in any way, it could be much worse. This will go down one of two ways. The parent will either step it up for once in their life, or they will not follow through. The best outcome here would be they step up and be a parent to your child. Right?

  48. SC says:

    I am so glad I came across your article and it is so true. Just confirms everything for us. Custodial parent has wanted ALL Christmas’s. We went to court and they gave us alternating Christmas’s. The Christmas it was supposed to start she made an excuse that she just had a baby and wanted their first Christmas to be together. I just had one too by the way. So we agreed. Starting that following January, custodial parent started saying the child didnt want to come down but we spoke to him and he was fine with it. He has a great time when he comes to stay with us. Later in the year she asked again. We said no. So she said she was going to file for more child support and filed paperwork to change the child’s last name to HER husbands name. So of course we had to get another lawyer because ours didnt work in that particular county. We tried working out a ‘deal’ with the custodial parent giving up one more Christmas and then alternate if we get the child longer for the summer and one extra day on the weekend. (My husband drives 12 hours round trip to see his child one weekend a month). Custodial parent said no and that only if the child spoke to each parent that he would be ‘comfortable’ coming to see us for Christmas. The custodial parent has been brainwashing the child saying he wouldnt see his friends and play with his toys. The child is 7 by the way. After spending all this money to make a deal for the custodial parent, rather than what is really best for the child, we decided to keep our Christmas and we can always go back to court to get the child for a longer period of time.

    This was not about the child, this was about the custodial parent not wanting the non-custodial parent involved. They make it sound like it is what the child wants. We know this is not true because she has tried to get my husband to give up all his rights as a parent twice and to give up his joint custody rights. It is horrible what some of these parents are doing to their children when they play these games.
    Somehow they want to ‘get back’ at their ex-whatever. I am a custodial parent myself. Please think about the child(ren) and get over whatever you may be angry about.

  49. Janix7 says:

    Courts do not recognize psychological abuse, and believe that visitation with a psychological abusive parent is more important than not having both parents. I think children have a right to speak up, whether or not they get to make the final decision.

  50. Trina says:

    I agree with Janix7. I have the problem that my son’s father is autistic and grade-school son finds him terribly boring. The man just monologues about himself and has no active listening skills. The poor boy finds his company excruciating. As long as they are engaging in some interesting activity such as an amusement park, bike ride, and so on, and do not actually have to interact with one another, they do well enough. Making chit-chat on Skype with him (picture a forced half-hour session with Rain Man at least twice a week) is so boring, however, that I am having problems forcing my son to do it. When he resists, complains or avoids, the father gives me a hard time for not facilitating contact. The father’s autism contributed to our breakup in the first place. The father’s communication problems are not taken into account by anyone, but if he chooses to give the mother a hard time because son is not enthusiastic about the relationship, everyone seems to listen and blame the mother. After all, children need fathers involved and present. Any father will do. Children must have them. Right. I call bullshit on THAT.

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