What are the justifications for long-term supervised visitation?

Greg, I think you are correct. It really does not help either in cases like you mentioned. I am in such a position. My EH is not able to have any standard visitation till he completes Finial (sp) counseling with our son. He isnt complying or completing any counseling sessions because he is required to pay for them. So he has basically the same custody he had before. The courts are just not willing to allow him the chance to have any type of unsupervised visitation with him till he has been thoroughly observed and actually addresses the problems he has. He is a pathological narcissist and this is NOT a curable condition. Unfortunately it is also not one where the person afflicted will face that they even have a problem. It is actually inherently part of the disease actually. One day maybe he will pull it together but doubtful given the history. I think long-term supervised visitation is used when the courts are in the tenable position where they cannot permanently withhold visitation yet they child also is at risk in an unsupervised setting. So they go for whatever safety measures they can. It certainly is not perfect or even good for the child but they do it because they are in a position of picking lesser evils. The NC parent has not done anything so wrong that visitation should be eliminated permanently yet unfettered visitation is not acceptable either. They try to give the NC parent a chance to parent in whatever capacity they can and keep the child in contact. Usually what happens is the parent stops visitation due to the cost (there are fees that go with this type of visitation) and inconvenience. The courts then are not held responsible for destroying the relationship and can sleep at night. I worked in the Insurance industry before becoming disabled. When we were required by law to offer coverage to someone but it was a risk that was so far out of our guidelines that we didnt want it, we would take the only other option available. Price it out. We would offer a quote but the cost would be so high that there was very little risk of the person purchasing and would in all likelihood shop with another substandard market that could give it to them much cheaper (which is where the risk belonged in the first place but the law required us to offer. This is what I feel they are doing. Offering something in lieu of nothing. Because the NC parent has not done anything so wrong as to eliminate any visitation. That is my take on it, in a strictly non legal professional view.

By your last sentence, I assume you mean capable of fixing their problems but have failed to do so? If they have failed to do so, and the child wants to maintain a relationship, then supervised vistation would be appropriate long term. If they fail to do so and the child is not interested in visiting, I say terminate it.

Greg, This brings back a lot of unpleasant memories of the NC parent having supervised visitation which were often terminated by the supervisor yet the court continued allowing supervised visitation because they thought they could "fix" a diagnosed mental illness. Just like good parents, the Court should set limits and stick by their guns when the limits are crossed. Unfortunately that wasn't the way it was 15 years ago.

I am asking the court for supervised visitation with non-custodial parent until the children reach age of majority. Non custodial parent had been ordered into multiple programs and never completed them, mental health assessments, treatment programs, never did them, never complied. Four judges ordered him into therapy. He never did it. He has been diagnosed with severe mental illness (bipolar disorder - untreated) and gets worse and worse. He has been convicted of domestic violence and ordered out of the house. Restraining orders. Has become severely abusive of the children. There have been at least 8 police officers involved in visitation in the last several weeks, DCFS investigations, juvenile detectives, and I had to file for an emergency hearing to implore the court for a modification for visitation. This is just crazy. The children are suffering terribly. They are being forced into visitation with a completely abusive, mentally ill person. We return to court in two weeks. The burden of proof is on me. I have never heard of permanent supervised visitation being ordered. Thus far we have had temporary supervised visitation ordered in this last month and non-custodial parent did not show up. He is also being prosecuted by LA County DA for non payment of child support so he is a mess - his driver license is being revoked in June. He is unemployed. No one will hire him. He is just losing it. He bragged to the judge that he called me a "C" . That's how out of touch with reality he is. With no visitation at all - the children have had a chance to stabilize from the trauma and are so much happier. But I have yet to see if the courts will order permanent supervised visitation until the children reach age of majority (that's ten years).

What if the father is a known drug addict, already hadn't done his supervised visits, is a narcissist, and a pathological liar? Someone please email me at ohsoluvly143@gmail.com. We have trial on Friday.

I don't think it matters about the personality disorders - unless they are diagnosed and it is part of a child custody eval. It matters if it is proven that he is abusive towards the children - and the dates, the events, that is of concern to the court. I won my hearing - and I did get supervised visitation until the children reach 18. Mostly it was because Respondent failed to file and serve written response or provide any of the paperwork that the court ordered him to file and the court had to grant me what I asked for by default. Additionally, his testimony was unconvincing. He himself said that he needed help - the court did recognize he had mental illness. If you are trying to prove that Respondent has a personality disorder chances are it will show in court. P.S. that he did not show for visits does have some weight. Following court orders is important.

I have something that may blow anyone's mind. I am curious to see what the statute of limitations are in actually going after a judge. Long story short...(I am happy to provide and prove the details in a further conversation.) I was ordered supervised visitation with my child, in the middle if litigating custody of our only child. The Judge recused herself and I had supervised visitation for almost 3 years. However, I had to arrests, no drug problems, no mental health problems and was cleared by a DCF investigator. HHmmm Weird right? I paid $75 a week and $20 for random drug testing (which I passed EVERY SINGLE ONE) I showed up for every visit for 3 years. I called the capital (Tallahassee) and was told that they were simply too tired of hearing the problems out of our county. The supervised center had to literally re-write their contract to receive my daughter and me because NO ONE EVER has been put on supervised visitation without some sort of police report or DCF investigation. EXCEPT me.... I would love to speak with anyone willing to help me...

What if the parent supposed to be supervised never was asked to by the mother even though shes the one who set it up? I have seen my kids over the past 10 years and just noticed in the minute orders it was modified by the courts to be permanent order to require supervised parenting'

Hello,,,In response to your question, I live in california and have been going through hell with my judge for seven years, I was never arrested, voluntarily asked for counseling and voluntarily took drug test, dcfsnever open a case but for some reason was conveinently around for. Answers to questions I would have and then harass me and my children at home and at their schools but never open a case against me. I was given monitored visitation and have been that way to this day.. I am desperately trying to bond with my children but under these conditions I am becoming more and more someone they look at with lots of questions. Please respond and maybe together we can get the answers we are both looking for..

Please email me ycruzjl@gmail.com

Beleena... I also live in Florida and have similar situation... The laws are hard 2understand w/o representation which is thousands of $$ I DO NOT have!I couldnt afford an attorney last year when I was served w/order for child custody of our infant child-SUPRISE! I left to a family members house where I must reside or be homeless... The father of my child obviously had stuff planned for mo's, and could afford an attorney-One who was $$. I have never been arrested, in trouble, no DV, no DCF calls, etc. was fabricated B.S. and I know why its like this, but cant seem 2 figure out what 2do now that I understand what I signed and agreed for, was NOT what I was told. I did read it, and am inyelligent, but has a few wks 2 review 100's of pages & get my stuff 2gether... Anyhow, I now have Supervised Visitation for life... Or until i afford 2get an attorney who can tell me how I can get unsupervised. It was told to me that it would just be for a little while, and a family member (who was never asked...) was to be the one to "supervise me" although it is known to my ex that this family member is busy & not home sometimes, and has a life outside me & my child 24/7. They trust me & are mad they are in court documents as the Supervisor!? Long story... I signed w/o attorney explaining 2me, and my ex lying about my income, and amount of dayz i have my child, so i am SUPPOSSED T pay HIM $$ that I cant afford. I have my child 3days a wk& holiday schedule, half. And we work well together w/changes. And he said not to pay, as I pay for everything for the 3 days I have my child, and day care is free when he works & in charge of our child. the only cost he provides extra is health insurance, which I know how much it is& NOT MUCH! And 1 extra day? But I WAS TOLD he would provide clothing, toys, food, etc for our child bc he claiming him as primary physical custody &sole legal responsibility. So I thought this was to help me, as my situation at hand w/o my ex puts me at below poverty. I thought this was TOTALLY different then what it is... SO what I've come to realize& still cant bear 2look further until a miracle comes & $$ drops down for an attorney 2help me..., There was NO "free help" or "representation if u can not afford an attorney. I called the # given, and went to where they told me. Advice was, "GET AN ATTORNEY!?" SO, I have no rights legally to my child, yet I care for them 3dayz (sometimes more) a wk. I pay for, or get help paying for from family, for ALL my childs needs & whatever else I can afford. My child has more than enough. And I am unsupervised 90% of the time, and my ex knows that?? BUT I am to pay hundreds of $$ a month to him? Why can I even see my child in the 1st place then? My situation is private, and not that uncommon, but is being used against me at a time most would have crumbled... I cant do this forever. 3days and holidays, chores, medical care, resting when I can & trying 2 make sure I have necessities for my next time with my child, IS MY LIFE! And Im doin it, despite his lousy excuse for all of this. Anyway, if u know of any free help for cases, as there are several changes since the order, along with information re: finances & things of that nature, that are not accurate from my ex's financial affidavit. I put copies of proof of EVERYTHING I claimed as debts, etc. He put #'s, but very FEW documents. Point being if u've gotten this far, Florida's laws (since we reside here I just been reviewing here & changes made a few yrs back) are just confusing, and OBVIOUSLY have loop holes that atttorney's, at a price, will swoop in and take advantage of the party w/o $ for representation, and help their client get full rights & can pull the plug on mommy whenever, bc parenting plan is made... But they have sole decision making authority & I have zero. Yet I am in charge of a child under the age of 5, almost 1/2 their life? I did nothing but do what I was convinced was the best thing for my child, and myself. WOW! I was scammed, mainly by my ex & what his attorney would tell him, and he would correspond &ask his attorney questions I had that I know were said, and as "good" of a person my ex is, he went & did something 2 rip my heart out because ? I don't know, will never. Thanks for reading if u got this far. Ur not alone out there if this is similar 2 your situation... i was told, and knocked down to believe, that "it doesn't matter what's on paper, I still can see my child & we will work together, etc... Yea right!

My daughter had cancer and was going through treatment, while she was sick her husband was extremely abusive towards her choking both her and the children. He admitted to choking one of the children and excessively beating the 21/2 year old child. When my daughter was able she ran to a safe house and filed for divorce. For 2 1/2 yrs she fought to keep the kids supervised, at the final hearing he was granted visitation every other weekend. 7 months has went by and she was recently given an emergency restraining order and is not able to see or call her or the children. The attorney says that he will get supervised visits again, but for how long, and will it be the same as before? This man tried to commit suicide with the children in his care, he held a shot gun in his mouth when my daughter when say she was leaving, and threw a loaded shot gun across the room with the children in the room. He went into a rage and shot the family dog. Why does it seem like she has had to fight so hard to keep him supervised, he was put into a mental institution and everytime the children have to visit him they come back upset.

Hi, im a 22yo single mother of two, who was in a dv relationship, we split freely in august and since have become just friends, back in september we had a private agreement he could see the children as much as he liked aslong as his family were not involved which he broke once, so i withdraw the agreement and he start to ring me constinaly wanting to see his children, i rang the police and told them he was harrassing me and briefly told then about historic dv (children not directly involved) then the dv officer threating me to get full residency or she will get social services involved (i never want the father to stop seeing his children) so i got scared and ignore her phone calls, few weeks later she referred me to social services this was in november 13, for the last four months they have been aware that he sees the children at the weekends and no assesments etc were done, i since put a complaint in as in a report she claimed me and my ex were in a relationship when i told her face to face and she also claimed in the report that i did not believe the dv had any affect on the children which again i new it had hence the relationship ending! i asked for a new social worker and an apology was sent to me and a new social worker, they have now forced supervised visitation between the children and there father on no grounds apart from historic dv between me and my ex partner, my son is on 4 but knows whats going on and is very upset about this as he doats on his father, do social services have the right to do this considering the children are very well looked after by both parties and there has been no direct threat to our children apart from hearing a few arguements in the past?? i have a legal meeting on monday and they are going to try to force upon the supervised visition and we are all very disturbed by this especially my son, surely this cannot be allowed??

what if the mother gets supervised visits but she has the supervisor come get the kids and drop them off? the supervisor is the grandma and there is no proof that she is the one watching the kids because she never shows?

I am in the exact same situation. How did things work out with you? If you have any info you could share please please please let me know. I have zero convictions and zero mental issues but I am required to have supervised visitation. It was only suppose to be for a month but the judge cancelled our last court date and we can not reschedule for 6 months. I was accused of drinking and driving with my kids but they are false accusations my ex is using against me. any help would be appreciated. thank you

I am for the use of supervised visitation as a means to continue the bond, when there is a mental or medical dysfunction. But what do you do, when the courts use this service to continue the visitation without any proven allegation of abuse or mental history. When it becomes a continuance of the control tactic from an abuser. The court has allowed this to continue without any CSP reports to be found and with only the response from the children s attorney that there are issues that need resolved. I have a very interesting case that needs to be looked at.

I believe that non-professional supervised visitation is a joke, because it is not being utilized for what it was intended. With non-professionals, you receive no guarantee that the services is being provided, and there is no reports to show the courts of the improvement or any safety concerns.

my husband received sole custody of his 2 children after his split from his very sociopathic ex wife and after multiple times of her brainwashing attempts with regular visitation and then after the 3rd time of a long term absence the judge ordered one hour once a month supervised visitation permanent unless he wanted to change it and he said he never saw that happening. The judge actually wanted to terminate her parental rights but according to the law he could not. the children do so much better when they do not have to deal with her. she pulled the whole parental alienation thing and it still messes with the kids mentally. so i am so in favor of long term and permanent visitation in some cases. We are going on 4 years of this and she has missed the last 6 months anyway

It has been over one year since an LA Superior Court judge ordered permanent supervised visitation for non custodial parent (paid for by non custodial parent). He has not arranged a SINGLE visitation. I have seen him in court at least 20-30 times since then for various contempt hearings and child support modification hearings and he desperately needs to seek medical and psychiatric treatment - and it is obvious to every single officer of the court, including the District Attorney who handled the contempt. The children are now coming to terms with all of the domestic violence he enacted, his mental/emotional instability, his homelessness, joblessness, craziness, assaults, batteries. We are finally coming down. It is a perfect example of when it absolutely necessary for long term and permanent supervised visitation (until the children reach 18). They are now 8 and 11 - we are finally resting a little easier.

I appreciate everyone's stories and comments on this article. I am starting a supervised visitation program in our community and hope to avoid all of these problems. I am an advocate for healthy children. If that means visiting parents, GREAT! If it means visiting fewer times, I will support that as well. I feel that each case is such a personal and sacred situation that we can't say which is better or not. Hopefully, we will be able to work with others as a team to do what is in the best interest of the child. Thanks again for sharing.

I know this is old, but you mention your EH is a pathological narcissist. I believe my husband is as well, I am divorcing him, but I don't know how to fight this in court. I have a newborn, and my NH is demanding regular, unsupervised, overnight visitation. Several days at a time. I cannot trust anything he tells me, or that he will act in my sons best interest. If you happen to read this, please email me at kberly76@yahoo.com, I would like some advice. Thanks

There is yet another side. I am a father who has fought for almost two years to see my children. My only means for the first year and a half were to visit them at school. All phones were turned off and no family members communicate. Recently the court ordered me to stop visiting the children at school where we had very normal visits. A few months have now passed without seeing my children. I wonder what they think when their dad just disappears completely from their lives? I then find that they were sent to therapy and after visiting a therapist are reporting that they do not want to see me until I accept responsibility for my actions. (Does that sound like words from 2 young girls who were hugging their dad with excitement the last time they saw him?) The court seems to be purposely driving a wedge and there is more damage to the children with every delay. I am losing faith that I will ever get to see my children normally again. The worst case scenario would be to have the image of a father be completely demoralized with long-term supervision. Think about what the children are being put through. None of this seems like a real solution and seems more like the opposite of what should be done. I would believe that the root problem to the majority of these cases is more about a bad divorce and has nothing to do with the children's true consideration.

I have a different situation as I was granted full custody of my 2 daughters ages 5 and 8- he had fled the state to avoid arrest and did not even show up to the divorce hearings. I divorced him 2 years ago after I discovered he had cheated on me for at least 5 years, was addicted to pills and cocaine, and also lied about not getting paid (on the rare instance he was employed) because he blew his money on drugs. He was also extremely jealous. He is an extreme pathological liar and is extremely convincing. I ended up losing my home and filing for bankruptcy due to all the debt he left me with. When I left him, he stole my checkbook and my parents checkbook and wrote fraudulent checks in order to get money for drugs...,which led to the criminal charges he left the state to avoid. Without any notice he left my girls and did not call or write. 8 months later, when he was arrested (while working on a pot farm in California) he started writing to the girls. He has broken many promises to them and I am afraid he had previously brainwashed my oldest as she suffers from extreme anxiety and of course trust issues. Now he is back around, engaged, and has held a job for a month. He sends postcards to the girls and the holiday usuals. They have seen him a few times, but now my oldest is torn on wanting to see him. She says she doesn't feel comfortable and is afraid that he will just hurt her again by leaving...but on the other hand she wants a father who loves her. My youngest barely remembers him... Would it cause them more heart ache and emotional damage to encourage them to see him or more if I don't allow him in their life? Thanks for any input!!

I would wait and see if this newfound employment ("has held a job for a month") and alleged stability holds. Drug addicts tend to relapse. This is not so great for children. I am sorry to say it but his future wife (you mention he is engaged) is probably in for trouble. If possible, perhaps there could be a professional pediatric therapist who could see your daughters regarding this issue - and their father could visit with them in the context of therapy - overseen by the professional therapist. This was ordered by the court in my case - and the children's father did come into the therapy session with the pediatric therapist and one child at least one time - he attempted to use the session to his own ends - but at least the therapist understood what she was dealing with as far as the impact his behavior made on the child.

It has been a year now that I have been permitted visitation only supervised. Prior to this; I was the custodial and primary parent until Father's entrance into our child's life just before she turned 5. Since that time Father has made every effort to alienate me, go against Court Orders except where he would have the most to gain, not show for exchanges, extend his parenting time and on and on. June 2013 he began seeking sole custody after an Order of Protection was served against him after he stalked both our daughter and me at our home, then pounded on the door attempting to gain access. He lost in Court in August 2013. He pursued again requesting an emergency hearing for change in custody. He was denied this too. His last resort was reporting to child protective services that I failed to protect our daughter and neglected her. This then turned into my having an "mental illness". My daughter was removed from my care, became a ward of the state and Father was granted physical custody. During that time he did what he wanted. stopped administering AD/HD medication to our daughter, having 9" cut from her hair, enrolled her in soccer (as an attempt to prevent parenting time on the weekends which I had been approved for)...all while my daughter was a ward of the state. Since being awarded sole custody with child protective services no longer being involved; Father refuses to permit anyone other than a "licensed therapist" to supervise (he claims the Court Order reads this way), utilizes the supervising agency as a go between when he changes my time on a whim (additionally claiming "its in the best interest of our daughter"), refused to pay the monies still owing to our former Court appointed PC who later wrote an unflattering report to the Court about Father having attempted to manipulate her like he does Mother adding that on the service he appears to be agreeable and cooperative but underneath he is not. I am in a bankruptcy, close to losing the home my daughter and I lived in prior to Father's entrance, the stress has caused loss of employment, I spend close to $600.00 in my visitations a month, have a Court Order to pay Father child support to the tune of $445.00, pay for the Court Appointed therapeutic interventionist 100% of his fees, all the while Father has a $108,000.00 unpaid bill in child support arrears, numerous judgments for his portion of medical expenses for our daughter that he refuses to pay, does not provide any insurance for our daughter (I do and always have), will not permit to attend our daughter's extra-curricular activities and feigns fear of me to support the unfounded claim that I have a mental illness. So here I sit having paid nearly $6000.00 in supervised visitation with no end in sight where I am now going to have to forego any visitation because of the financial hardship. And I am still expected to attempt in co-parenting with someone who makes every effort to remove my existence. And in not seeing my daughter, will the Court look unfavorable at me for not maintaining the relationship or unfavorable at Father for not relinquishing any control because he is expected to?

I have been on supervised visitation for 3.5 years. It all started when I relapsed (after 23 years sober) - and I understood. Then my ex fiance (who owes me 400k) got in on the action, joined forces with my son's father, and the rest is sad horrible history. I have now been sober 3.5 years, am addressing any and all issues brought to my attention by professionals (I have bi polar disorder, successfully treated w/ meds), and have yet to regain any normal relations with my son. I have given up, and soon I will not be able to pay to see him any longer. I feel for you.

sometimes it is better not to have a destructive parent around. i mentioned a few months ago about my husbands ex wife only receiving limited supervision for almost 4 years now, it always hurt my step kids more to deal with her for a while just to have her disappear again. I had to put my SD in therapy because she had so many emotions regarding her mom. but then again if he conts to push u need to go get very explicit orders for supervision, long term, hopefully, to ensure safety. we just went back to court last month because we moved out of state and she is still permitted to see the kids but only intense supervision only and since its been so long now, she never attends. eventually ur children will have some kind of contact with him, but get the steps in place to protect them now. If u try to cut him out it could work against you in court. at least it shows u might be willing to let him try to try on ur children's part.

what i don't understand is the sudden change in custody, i have not heard of a state yet that does that UNLESS there is undeniable proof of abuse, and u mentioned CPS being involved. makes me wonder if there is something u r not disclosing. and then u say that she became a ward of the state but then in the same sentence something about father getting custody. its not both. my husband has had custody of his 2 kids from his ex wife for almost 6 yrs now and she has repeatedly called CPS for allegations of abuse and NEVER has it ever come to change of custody. in fact that is why she is going on 4 yrs of supervised visitation. and as far as the court's opinion of unavailability, depends on what the exact reason was for the supervision. was it because of abuse or neglect or "mental illness" and what are u doing to amend it. the only reason they keep visitation supervised for any parents is when they continually fail to change the reason the visitation became supervised in the first place. so the fact that there is no financial means for visitation is not a factor the courts will usually consider because its a situation that the visiting parent usually creates. and there are programs that help with the costs as well. my husband has complete control over what happens to his children and she is also in the same boat as u. and the courts in all these years have not been sympathetic to her. believe me i am not attempting to be ugly, just factual. i know that many parents and childrens' bonds are cut due to a faulty court system at times that fails to see lies or manipulation by the other parent. but there are steps that can be taken on your part to make it right and maintain the bond.

Actually it was both. She was a ward of the state with dad having physical custody. Two months later CPS dismissed the dependency hearing feeling dad was a better parent and the court awarded him sole legal decision and physical custody. There was no neglect, abuse or other. Why would I post and not disclose all. Don't know you and not looking for your judgement. And I have done a lot to get the situation corrected. Court drags their feet ordering this or that. I recently had to suspend face-to-face because of the financial and fighting like hell to even get video chat. Father just has excuse after excuse and wants absolute control. Despite an agency's willingness to supervise video chat at no cost.

I'm not judging and i apologize if I sound that way. I'm very aware of controlling parents. We fought his ex for 3 years. I've seen judges give custody to parents for all sorts of reasons, justified or not. But I'm confused on why they felt only supervised visitation was necessary. And his ex wife posts all kinds of stuff about this and that but never discloses all details. Better parent OK, more stability, OK, but there's usually extreme circumstances to warrant supervision. Or extreme circumstances that some one thought would warrant that decision. And on a long term basis. But keep being persistent. Document all u try to do and what it unable to do and for what reasons. And get back to court soon to try to her the supervision lifted because time isn't on Ur side

I like how u chicks get in bed with sooo called narcissist u should have supervised visits also since u have bad judgment...chew on that a while ...........

I recommend to keep going to Court. Ignore the step-mothers, step-fathers or other legal strangers that could easily end up in your shoes if your ex turns on them one day (77% 2nd marriage divorce rate when children involved). Stay positive and have faith.

Thank you!! I am back in Court January and Father is doing EVERYTHING he can to stop this to include asking the Court to find me as a "vexatious litigant" which the statute in AZ does not go into effect until after December 31, 2014. I have also (while I am sure I will be called every dirty name in the book) motioned the Court for an "in camera" interview with my daughter as her voice has gotten lost with all the focus on me. Father calls this SHAMEFUL, but he is OK with the TI and the BIA interviewing her. SMH.

I termed my ex (my children's father) a vexatious litigant - here in California - I stated this is my responsive declaration to a motion he made - and listed the dates he made previous motions and orders to show cause - this was after he had made nearly 130 motions and filings many of which were denied. He just kept on trying. So I believe it would have to be proven, in your case, that you in fact did make a very high number of motions - for the term vexatious litigant to be an accurate one. You may look this up on the internet for your state's laws - if it is not a substantiated argument, then it is merely name-calling and he is getting to you. Also, in my case, my ex actually called me a C--- in court - he actually said this to the judge. So yes, we do get called every name in the book. But the judge just said, "Don't even look at him, miss. Look at me."

i think that i would be guilty of being a "vexatious litigant" if i was not allowed to see my children. but yes keep plugging along, keep doing right and keep being persistant. i would like to think that they can't ignore you forever, but if u keep showing that your're trying it will be in your favor. I know in texas is it hard to prove that someone is "filing frivolous suits" (is what its called in texas) because everyone has a right to petition the courts for whatever or whenever. I hope that everything goes well for you and keep us posted!

Vexatious is a strong word coming from the person who filed not one but four motions this past Friday. Each one had the same tone of not only attempting to elicit response but also one nearly mirrored that of an email sent to the supervisor which I was cc'd when she wrote for us to co-parent. Vitriolic. So the question is posed: How does one co-parent with the one with all the power and control? When I ask about our daughter having gone to the dentist I get back an attempt to demean me which I have to filter through to get the meat of the response. I ask about a strep throat test and I am ignored. Recently I asked if he could have her bring her school art project back to school so that I could have it imprinted on something for me to purchase and his response was she needs a pair of tennis shoes NOT artwork. ???? Of course I will buy her the much needed tennis shoes. Before he obtained sole custody I kept him abreast of appts, extra curricular activities etc. I made certain that none fell within his parenting time or suffer the wrath. My limited parenting time has been thwarted, continually changed...and always resonating that I am required to be flexible with my daughter being used as leverage. Scheduling time for this Thanksgiving? Nightmare. More manipulation and deceit.

Why did you have two kids with this psychopath? 3 years apart? I feel sorry for your kids.

The Holidays are fraught with opportunities for friction and animosity with regard to children and visitation. Professional intervention may be in order in the way of pediatric counseling or adult counseling. That may be one way to "co-parent with the one with all the power and control" - This has to be one of the most psychologically taxing situations known to human kind and I can understand at least a minor bit of your experience. In my case, it was not the time with the children he kept filing for, which was eventually ruled upon as supervised until they reach 18, but a resistance to paying ANYTHING for court ordered child support even though he had hundreds of thousands at one point which he squandered. In fact after years of arguing about the children he changed his tack and claimed he was not the father - "non-paternity." He just about tried anything and everything - even filed the same motions two and three times. The courts got on to him. We had six judges but eventually the case was heard by the same two judges again and again and they were on to him. He was also ordered into various counseling programs - therapy - treatment - which he never did. In California one cannot force anyone into treatment. My big beef was that the father was getting sicker and sicker and not going into treatment, but the children were forced to have visitation with the father anyway. For this I attempted to initiate legislation with my Senator and Assembly person - even the Chair of the Domestic Violence Committee in Ca. - but it had to be seen on a case-by-case basis in the courts.

I think it causes more emotional damage to have him simply sweep into and out of their lives at his whim. Strong male role models such as an uncle who is very responsible, or a teacher who shows consistency and kindness and steadily supports his family - these are the demonstrations you want them to be exposed to. I do believe you want them to form some kind of healthy relationships with a man somewhere, somehow so that they know what to look for when choosing a boyfriend or partner.

THIS IS WORTH READING AND IN DYER NEED FOR SOME HELP, ADVISE, ANYTHING!!! I AM HEARING STORIES WHO FIT MY DESCRIPTION OF THE OTHER PARENT WHO REFUSES IN ANY WAY TO CO PARENT AND IS IN DESPAIR NEED OF MENTAL HELP BUT WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN A SITUATION ENDS UP WITH THIS KIND OF TWIST. I am in a very similar situation with my ex husband, severally bipolar, been convicted of child abuse and plead guilty to the crime of beating a 3 year old little boy. Now my only advise is before you just leave and get a divorce, while you are still married have your spouse baker acted and gather all their medical records you can as the spouse. Also do not be afraid to call the police and take pictures of any marks from abuse. NOW FOR THE STORY IM SURE NONE OF YALL HAVE HEARD BEFORE AND MY KIDS NEED PEOPLE TO HELP ME SAVE THEM!!! I did not find all this out about my ex until after we was married and already had our first child together. I brought my own 2 children in this relationship my 1st marriage. I believed his lies of how he never beat that little boy, he took the rap for his ex wife. later on he started beating on me and yes i did file police reports and found out later he was abusive to my other 2 children. Was not planned but we got pregnant again and again like a stupid person i believed this time would be the time he really would change and i tried to make things work. So together I had my 2 boys from a prior marriage and we had our 2 kids together. When I saw him back hand our 3 year old in the mouth and then punch him in the stomach to shut him up, i took all 4 kids and left our home. I later reunited with my 1st ex husband (father of my 1st 2 boys) and we have been back together for 5 years and happily remarried. I was the CP and the first 6 months, it was ordered for him supervised visits as long as his mother was there. With the abuse he put on me it caused my hip to be broken and damage to my lower lumbar. After running my own business and working full time I brought in $250k per year. With my back continuing to get worst I am now filing for SS disability which is fine since my current husband has been taking care of us for years. Now seeing that this story is very much like the one above. I really didn't see after spending $20k in attorney fees the need to spend any more. I was the CP and later we worked out him getting the kids over night after my son was 6 years old and my daughter was 2 years old. During this time after an over night visit our daughter came back home and suffered injuries so bad she could not urinate. Statements where made and heard by CPS and detectives and arrest had been made but nothing concrete so the state dropped the case. I guess her statement and injuries viewed by ER was not good enough. All this being said on top of the over $100k I was owed of items and money the courts ordered him to pay me had not been done, my ex had the nerve to take me to court to fight for full custody. this being said and me being completely honest, i had a mid class mis on my record and is the only thing on my record, not even so much as a speeding ticket. His list goes on from battery 2nd degree, theft, drug trafficking, DUI, DWI, he's been through AA and NA yet still drinks and is to this day a felon who can not even get a job working with children. Well I made a mistake and had 2 & 1/2 beers and though i ate and hours later ran up to the store (by myself) again my mistake and that is my mis on my record. my ex had no knowledge and neither did any of my 4 children. yes i got put on probation being it was my first offense every for anything and nearly 40 years old. I still remained the CP . There was no need to CPS to get involved, not over a traffic violation. The children where still doing great and very stable, making all A's and B's, mostly A's, honor students. They where all adjusting extremely well and in counseling. We went outside everyday and had family time, went to church, everything a stable loving family is suppose to be. Well my husband got laid off from work and we decided vs pawning everything we own to pay our bills, we moved in with my in-laws and started saving money to buy a house. My ex did not like the fact we moved in with my inlaws which is not new news cause nothing I ever did was right in his eyes. The lay off caused me to get behind on my probation fees and even though I paid at least $100 every time I came in, when I came in for my check in, they arrested me for being behind on my payments. My ex found out about it and came to our home and took the kids. He did not even have a court order yet but the grandparents didn't know any better so they let him take them. He took me back to court to take all my rights away and get full custody. I was only in jail less then a week and technically I was back home before the judge signed him over temp custody. I really did not see the point in hiring an attorney because what had happened over a year prior to him finding out did not change anything. like i said the kids where still doing great in school, we played, they was well dressed and feed. bottom line they was never abused or neglected, not my me. While he had the kids, I tried talking and reasoning with him with no luck. He kept the kids from me without even so much as phone calls for 6 months straight and he stopped their counseling. we went to court thinking I'll just state my case and the kids will come back home with mommy and i'm sure there would of been penalties to say the least for all the trouble he started and making the kids lives unstable. well he ended up having and still has full custody and I now have to go to a place for supervised visits where i only get 4 hours per month, if he even brings them up there. he wont even let me talk to them on the phone. I have been a mother for 16 years now, my oldest is in the top 5% in his class. Now the children he has custody of are being hit out of anger and the supervisor didn't even make note of it when my son told me this and they have a new step mom that has a record of being a hookier who shot her pimp in cold blood. My kids are 7 and almost 11 and the supervisors will yell at the kids if they ask me how their 15 yr old and 16 yr old brothers are doing that they have lived with their entire lives. My daughter just had a birthday and when i tried to call her, her dad yelled and screamed at me for calling. The siblings have not heard each others voices in a year now. The reasoning the judge has given turns out don't even have anything to do with me being on probation (which I am not on anymore), her response is because there is so many things wrong with my back and im on pain meds now (we're talking basic hydrocodone, not even the strongest dose), and its only until i can have the surgery i need and to help me get through my physical therapy. im in so much pain that my blood pressure lingers around 160/120. after my 1st set of injections my blood pressure went down when the pain levels went down. so here is the reason i have supervised visits... JUDGE ORDERED A SURPRISE DRUG TEST IN WHICH I TOOK AND SHE SAID I FAILED SO I LOST THE KIDS AND HAVE TO BE SUPERVISED. WHEN I ASKED THE JUDGE IF I COULD ADMIT MY MEDICAL RECORDS IN AS EVIDENCE THE JUDGE SAID NO... WHEN I ASKED HER IF I COULD PLEASE ASK WHY NOT... SHE SAID IF I QUESTION HER AGAIN I WILL BE HELD IN CONTEMPT OF COURT. Now listen close to this closely... remember that company i told you I owned and still do...remember the $100k in money and items that was to be returned to me or he would be held in contempt... he never was and my company was a limo company and money went missing right when this judge started running to be voted in anther term. Now tell me what I should do? My kids are failing in school now and being hit in angry and god knows what other abuse. They are being neglected as the father is never there for them and when he is home the kids tell me (again right in front of the supervisors) that they get yelled at all the time to clean up the house and wash clothes (even the grown ups) and not light house work.. they have to dust vacuum, mop, clean bathrooms...total and complete maid service. They are instructed they are not allowed to kiss mommy any more or they will be grounded. The list goes on and on. And my kids came up to the visitation place asking me why im a drugy. they are prescriptions written out to me by a doctor because I need them is what i tried explaining yet the supervisor says i need to change the subject. so now there is the mental abuse. It is in the court order even stating not to make bad remarks about the other parent. SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD DO? THE FINAL ORDERS ARE DONE. I'VE BEEN TOLD SINCE THIS ORDEAL THE JUDGE FOR WHATEVER REASON IS GRACEFULLY BOWING OUT OF THE RACE TO RUN AGAIN FOR ANOTHER TERM. UNTIL THEN WHAT SHOULD I DO?

yes holidays are a very sticky mess. We finally rec'd our new orders. She gets to call 3 times a week and still gets monthly visitation at her cost, which means she has to travel 2000 miles to come see her kids. but like single mom was saying, she keeps filing but not to try and ask for more time, she wants custody, period the end! she wants all or nothing. she has to complete a psych eval also before she can even think about asking the court for more visitation. so it continues, intense supervision until otherwise changed and after almost 5 yrs. she is only entitled to two hrs a month instead of 1. after all the crap and money and asking her to do right by the kids, all she gets is an extra hour, but now at the cost of the visitation center, and gas and or flight, food, lodging. Too hard for her? maybe, but consider what all she has done to her children. She voluntarily went for 11 months from last january to this december no contact via phone and refused visitation at our sole expense. when do the custodial parents get to say enough is enough?

It's because narcissist are very charismatic. They have a way about them that makes you believe they are all the things you want. They listen well and play with your emotions like no other, and in the end, have you guessing whether you are crazy or they're the crazy ones. I was married to one and never felt so awful in my life. Read up on narcissists and you'd understand how these "chicks get in bed" with these types of people. You don't know they're the type of person they are until they've got a noose around your neck.

Keep an accurate record of all of these events. If she does bring you back to court, present the record. She will not get custody.

I totally get it. And the "Parenting Without Conflict" class the Los Angeles Superior Court imposes on high conflict custody cases are no help at all. I almost want to believe that there will never be smooth sailing between you and the other parent no matter what you ask. If that person is looking for ways to retaliate then he/she will do it by creating conflict. The more distance you can put between the two of you the better. If possible, have a professional mediator or middle person do the communicating - I am not sure who this could be. In my case it eventually came down to the children's pediatric psychologist.

its not so much custody that i am worried about as just any kind of regular visitation. i think any un-monitored contact she had with them would def be detrimental to their physical and emotional health because of all the damage she has inflicted already over the past 7 years. I wish the court system had a better idea and would be more apt to recognize personality disorders when they come up. Borderlines and antisocial personality disordered ppl should never be allowed to raise children or have regular unsupervised visitation with them.

My question is this: How do you get it terminated? My EH has had supervised visitation for 2 and a half years. I've been told this is very atypical. He, too is a narcissist. He's verbally abusive and married a woman with whom he has a volatile relationship. The order now states that she is to have NO contact at all with them. A default judgment was ordered for the kids to have supervised access until they are 18 due to the circumstances, including him taking off with my younger two for a night (visit was from 5pm - 7pm), cutting off all correspondence with me and saying he'd do it again because he can since he's their father. All I hear is that I need to try mediation so I can have some say so in the matter so a court (he's appealing the default judgment) doesn't get ahold of it and take us back to square one. I'm being made to feel that I really have nothing left. That a court very well may feel sorry for him and give him visitation back. My kids have no interest in going to the visitations, much less to have regular visits back to where they would be forced to be in a dangerous situation. But, because they are so young, no one will take that into consideration. I can't seem to get anyone to listen to me and understand the ramifications of giving him ANY unsupervised access back. I'm at the end of my rope and don't know what I can do to make someone sit up and take note of this.

if he tries to appeal, then he would have to prove the court made a mistake in its decision to assign supervised visitation. If he wants a modification of the order, then he would have to prove that there is a substantial change in circumstances - that is, he has gone to weekly therapy for those 2 and a half years and has been on a medication regimen, has a steady job for at least a year, is no longer living with the abusive wife, etc. etc. These are just examples. If he cannot prove, by specific examples, that there has been a substantial change in circumstances since the most recent order, then I am not sure what his legal argument is... that he misses his kids? That it's unfair? If you have very specific examples of why supervised visitation should NOT be relaxed, and if he indeed does haul you into court, be prepared to deliver these arguments.

I am the legal guardian of my infant nephew. His parent is a heroin addict and has been for 6 years. She has not complied with any of her case plan to try and get him back so the court has granted us custody. We are expected to offer "reasonable visitation" and I'd like to know opinions on what that is? How many hours per week, per month? She had 14 hours supervised visits per week through JFS but only averaged 2/3 hours a month. Any guidance or help would be appreciated

It is my belief that addicts don't change. Thus, "reasonable visitation" in this situation should definitely remain as supervised. You don't say who is required to pay for it. If the parent is using heroin, I would assume that all funds go to supporting the habit. If the parent had only averaged 2/3 hours a month in the past, then perhaps that is reasonable visitation - that is - 2 to 4 hours per month. That could be broken down into two 2-hour sessions in a professionally supervised situation, to take place every other weekend. You would need to establish whether or not the parent could even handle this schedule - and do so consistently - but if this was set up, then it should remain in place until the children reach 18. If it is set up, then you should stick to the schedule and not let the other parent constantly change it according to his or her whim. If he/she does not arrange for the visitation then there should be no visitation that weekend. Usually, if you are using a professional supervised visitation center, they set up the appointments.

Father dignosed with low intellectual functioning and Multiple personality disorders.................on multiple occasions has left child unattended in cehicle from age 1 to age 26months -police state not illegal. Multiple times in supervised large setting has on multipled occasions stated Terrrifying Terrositic threats to child (casuing long term sleep issuies!!!!!!) and after court granted unsupervised (yes right after supervised) he physically assaulted child with biting and hitting (HARD!!!!!!!!!) the forsenic psychologist staed in report that any therapies with this male would be refractory (IMPOOSBLE!!!) HELP!!!!!!! Daughter is in KIndergarten!!!

I married who I thought was the love of my life. I saved myself for marriage, my children are with my husband. However our second pregnancy brought to light the double life he was living with affairs, lies and mental issues. Never did j question my husband before the lies became unraveled. So I didn't just jump into bed with some random person. The day his mistress informed me of his affair he snapped and I discovered the ones before her. Come to find out he's dealing with ptsd, poor morals and some other mental issues that never showed before his mask fell off. Never once during our 7 year marriage did he put a hand on me. That all changed in an instant with physical and verbal abuse. Now as a mother to two small children I have a responsibility to them to protect them from this life. It's my job to teach them what is acceptable and not. How to treat others and how it's ok for men to treat them. I don't know if his anger and rage is treatable but until that's determined supervised visits is the only acceptable option for our kids.

I'm going they something very similar to your situation. I feel like if the court would look into our case a little better they would see that I'm not the monster my ex husbands lawyer painted me out to be that day in court. 4 years now that he's had our 8 year old son, and it breaks my heart to hear my son ask when he can stay with me and not have to go back to his dad. I know that when my son is older that he'll have resentment towards his Dad for being this way and trying any and everything possible to try and keep me and my son apart. Then Father of the year can explain that. It's the waiting time from now until he's old enough to talk for himself in court and choose where he wants to live that seems to be the longest wait I've ever been thru. I have court ordered visits, but he's withheld them for the past 2 months, this was to be my weekend and my sons Bday weekend as well, but Thursday I recieved "maybe" and "we'll see" as the answers for letting me have my weekends back. Yet come Friday neither him nor his wife will answer my calls or my texts! I don't know what to do, and not only is my heart broken and no tears left to cry out ... Only makes me wonder how my son feels!

I have court ordered supervised time. Not only am I at the mercy of Father but the supervising agency shuffles their schedule so much that my time is either moved or canceled. As in the case of yesterday...my time canceled. Today being Easter I am not seeing my daughter and maybe I'll see her next Saturday with make up time IF Father permits. Yet I am the only one in receipt of the communications received as I am driving to the location. No apology. No explanation just shuffling of schedule. My two hours appears to be less important. And I have an uncommunicative other parent. How are our children expected to have consistent meaningful relationships with us if we're just the puppet with others pulling the strings?

Women seemed to have forgotten bow munch a father lives his bbya fact a little girl needs her daddy far more the her mommy emotionally. My bbys need me BT the mom goes to court lies no proof at all and now Iget ssupervised for a year. The problem lies with women brainwashing other women to thing they really r a victim and to hur their ez all the while the children are being scared for life. 80% of cases where kids r murders by their parent is by the mother

You should hire an appearance attorney to go in for one hearing where they 170.6 the judge. You need a new judge. You also need to not take ANY medication and get a physical stating your fine. Dont care how u do it, just do it. Then file a motion to modify custody based on your changed circumstances. If all else fails, if there intos no restraining order in place., meet up with your ex, don't care how u do it, just do it, piss him off terribly so that he hits you, call the police from wherever u are, do not call later on, do not got to the police station, you call 911 right then from wherever u are, he gets arrested the kids go Into protective custody and that puts you in dependency dcfs court three days from then. But he will be viewed as the bad parent to the court, because the children were removed from his care. At that hearing three days later you may get them back if u pass a drug test, which they will test you so be prepared to fake it if u have to. Use your teenagers pee, don't use fake pee that u buy somewhere. Also, take a witness and don't get killed.

Read up on narcissists buddy. They seem perfect until you're caught in their little world of hell.

Really father's can't sit here and pull the whole father's are not treated fairly card anymore when there is father's rights activists groups and Lawyers everywhere you turn leaving no help for women. I'm a victim as well as my children fir abuse yet the father is a narssistic lair who had a farther rights lawyer help take our children away from me, their mother and stuck me with supervised visits all because I had to move in with family after he still my business and home from me. Tell me how in anyway that is fair. There us a new judge now who is righting the wrong however we will never get those 2 years back and my daughter will never be the same after being sexualy assulted by him. All because I couldn't be there for them and in the supervised visits we was not allowed to descuse anyone in our visits therefore she could never open up and tell her own mother what had been happening to her. So please guys don't pull the sexset card. Evil is evil in every color and sex.

Are your visit supervised by a therapist? Or a untrained professional?

I'm curious what is anyone defining as long term?

Please tell me HOW you found out your ex is a pathological narcissist -Mine is too and Final Orders is in 17 days... HOW? The PRE did psych evaluations on both of us -but my soon to be ex husband ALWAYS claimed that he could manipulate any mental health testing and make it say whatever he wanted it to... Please? Can you tell me how you got the court to see that he is a Narc? It's not like he's going to go to a doctor and get diagnosed -and then actually share the diagnosis, and *I* can't diagnose him myself...

Hello I'm having a difficult time. My ex had convinced everybody she wasn't cheating. That I was crazy. Well I also have the names numbers and details. She uses the court and police against me and last year she was to pick up checks and a gift for a daughter a laptop. She then just wanted me to send money and I can't go near she got a restraing order because she kept manipulating using the girls she was moving back and it was loops of cheating. Of course you want your 13 year love wife mother and children home. She had taken. From start id have to call the world to try and speak to my girls. I saved messages. She would not let a different supervisor which is ridicules I use to volunteer three days a week at there schools my oldest and I were super tight especially do to I noticed how sad she got because mom is very spoiling with the youngest. She has a full custody zero support (lied) and I have zero contact with stipulated locating. July cut me off and august pictures new bf kids love hands. April was the filing and that was that. Her bf wrote me and she modes. She moved out and said after not saying where not even the girls told me she had someone. Police were mad I sent them. Its granted she warned in court when she asked and didn't file to move. I got violation for looking for them 26 and her bf sent me messages from 22 to 27 I have two only. She had to go back home this july another laptop still justgot supervisor switched but she had told him 6 months before and she lied didn't go to assign him had my daughter call sad mad blaming her god father. Weve been in court and I always try to say sometthing and no. I've been so discriminated the police officer investigating november contacted me when her bf had some type of conflict with my daughter he has 2 violent DV mine is non violent. He has to public intox. I guess he sent me voicemail my ex tells him off I had to hunt my daughter down with her family and week later I've never met him it was on the phone. He had sent me pictures talking crap with him and my girls I have them. So he balled month later apologising he was drunk but that they are always fine and there always around well my daughter told me after the incident they ended but he called and he was talking to her or something he said hold on she was there or another phone. So I ended up trying to report that he threatened me not to report it because I said its diferent no way the voicemail sounds more his way. Detective emailed me not to write her anymore good luck because I sent one first regarding her investigation and then pictures. Then that occurred and another. Then the threat was at night another. She blocked me. Safe right. My daughter this july going on talking to me saying I had a man crush this and that practically like a little kid bully I scolded her saying don't u ever do that to a kid in school she said they do that at school. She started and this one I recorded because first week july she went to my house to pick something up from my sister two weeks later after saying she needed gas money she would take her sadly another laptop she ended up asking for a backpack I overnighted for 70 and began how did you react when she was pregnant with me. You kidnapped her. You were Scarry to her. 1 hour I recorded doing that and saying nothing at all happened December it never existed. I sent a message with the recording I told them have a lawyer contact Mr I'm filing mental child abuse after it continued. She called me crying im stressed with school and u not believing me. I said I didn't do that and I didn't tell you to lie and its safety not to ever lie to anybody. She said she told the dcfs worker nothing. That worker discriminated me also and that's a fact it was numerous times revered to a Dr her mom had since preschool for youngest I said thanks I'll call Angie I got her for her not her. She or the detective locked the girls down at school because I was asking if I could send balloons in march and school had no idea DVDs was involved they never investigated anybody but me never contacted MD about messages of mom always out and girls looking for her at 3 am. So I said stop child abuse and she called her and she's charging me again. I have messages recordings etc. They have a message or some and a call but its child safety and I needed to know what was going on and I was demanding a lawyer etc I probably cussed after my daughter lied about her safety. My ex was molested and hugs and kisses her step dad now. It was never reported her mkm sent her and sister to mexico a year instead and left the two youngest they've been out of the house since then because the detective said she doesn't have to tell you where I said no she has to follow the law though. Report it to the court. Nope after two weeks my daughter called said hi and I said what's going on and they snatched the phone and talked crap. It was 29 seconds and her grandmother who exchanged messages two weeks she said pure lies about me and I said yes real mother you were and told her. I need help I was manipulated she would make me send her money. She would make me accept her going out to bring girls home I have messages showing everything everything. Please help my daughters I'm worried for them. I've wanted the mom to get help for years now its all my fault and the girls blame me

Right on Maria. My ex girlfriend calls me this because we argued. Simple arguments. and now I'm a narcissist lol Some women are so quick to put down the father of their children, when doing so helps them out in court, when in all reality, they don't need any more help from court. I can't beive you got -29 votes. that's B.S.

What about the father that walks the line..does things and goes places with his his kids and gets slapped in the face..the ew new bow chokes her and the children see this and nothing can be done

you about the other option you forgot like in my case where my ex is just using it as a game to keep me from seeing my kids forever i have gotten sever co workeers and friends and even my first wifes aunt said she would babysit us and every one is denined because of nonsence reasons like she donet know them or they smoke or ... what ever reason she had friends wwho said they wouldl do it and woulldnt ever scheduale a date and when it was discussed in court they said they are willing and if i contacted them it would have happened i point out and so did my lawyer that we ahve tried and she has refused every day for the next 2 months after teh case i called her again to have her say she will no longer do it because i said she wasnt availble which was true. a month a go a friend said i was talking to a friend of mine a social worker/case management person and shy offered to do it for me i got her to attend court so the judge could meet her aand say yeah or nay nothing happened her lawer is demanding resume and all that i ahve sent her masters degree deploma and her other 2 deplomans and still nothing i ahve now sent a resume and im sure there will be a new flaming hoop to jumo thru and so you are aware all i did was invite my sone to be ex to a meeting with my therapist to finally discuss if there would be effort from her to save our marrage or not and after almost 6months of waiting and not know i deseved a answer i gotn a no and then i said well ok then i have other issues to bring up liek when your son was cought looking at porn on my daughter oc in her room with her in her bed and him no just turned 18 masturbating in her bedroom 4 feet from here should could ahve seen the pc and him she didnt discusse that with me she hid it and moved him out before she would discuss it and then had him move into the same room with my 8 yr son and as a person who was molested i had a problem with that he son now 25 shouldnt be in a bedroom with an 8yr expexcilly after teh 18yr old birthday episode then i mentioned that while she sent me out for all this self discovery i relived i was molested as a child and she my current wife had twice beaten me and raped me after i refused to finish sex because of something she said to me she hit me and took me sexually but no one cares because im a man it funny well when you are molested and then raped by someone oyu love and who is ththe mother off yoour kids you have a chooice to repress itt dealwitth it police/therapy and well i didnt haave the self help awareness i have now so i repressed it noot wanting to destoy my family so what about then when a father now on day 200 who is trying but unable to get to vissit his kids my girls 12th birthday was the other day i wasnat allowed to see her so i got flowers and took them to her at her apt and now her LAwyer wants me arrested for contemt of court i love and miss my family and dont seem to have any hope of seeingg them again because t i caant afford to pay $800 a month childsupport and maanatain all the stuff the court demands i keep paying for and still ahve $$$$ to see my kids my lawyer hasntt gotten anywhere and has now sent me a statment for 5k and demands i make $300 a month payment to her or she fires me and so again where is this magic cash coming from to pay to see my family each paychack i ahve about 200$ left to eat and gget gas and medicane and drs well what if something breaks im done i'm already a month behind on all bills beacuse of this i never hit my wiife or kids i wasnt neglectful or anything will anyone help me ever? i guess not based on life so far sorry for the typos im autistic and this is the best i can do with written comms

Hi, I want to start one up in my small city also!! Your post is abput 18 months old. I hope you were sucessful!! Email me back I have questions. Thank you, Dawn California

Your comment makes me sick and just shows how ignorant you are and that you haven't got a clue or any compassion at all. I was married to a psychopath for 28 years and had no idea who he was until last year! He completely swept me off my feet when I was young and he stole my life! They are the best at mirroring people so I always felt he was my sole-mate. They study how people work and are extremely good at copying human emotions and at seeming so so normal, caring and genuine. I couldn't have believed it was all fake! Some are better than others at this acting game and thats why mine was so hard to spot. Acting as though they have so many insecurities and issues (its all about them), problems with jealousy because they love you so much (just all an excuse for their behaviour) so you feel sorry for them but they never really work on their issues. They just let you think they do to restore your faith in them. They don't see anything wrong with themselves or actions as they always have a reason or excuse for them and never show or feel any remorse. Its not always bad times with them either but they control your time, and all the good and bad times all the time. Its a pattern that is extremely hard to spot when you're busy bringing up a family & working your arse off to make ends meet. Obviously when you live with a person like this you know they're not treating you ok at times but you are human and feel sorry for them and try to help them with their issues. And it feels worth all the struggle when you have really good times for months on end. Ofc they only pretend that they want you to help them as they are impossible to help or cure. Im so grateful for the internet. Thanks to sites out there I finally saw him for who he was and plucked up the courage to leave him and divorce him. Shame it took me so long to find out who he was but I can't change that fact. Now I´m doing all I can to protect my children. I have sole custody and going through the courts at the moment to set up supervised visits. I live in fear at times as I don't know what he's capable of now that I´ve left him for good. He still thinks he owns me and he hates me for leaving him. This is the reality for a lot of women so stop being so disrespectful posting ignorant comments like that.

I would also like to add that there are so many more psychopaths and narcissists amongst us than you could ever imagine. Anyone with a human heart can be fooled by the most clever ones. They are not all lower class or drug addicts either. They can be very popular and respectable people. When I told my sister in law I had left her brother and after a few months plucked up the courage to let her know what I had found out about him (that he's a psychopath)(I was worried she wouldn't understand and that she would be offended, after all he is her brother) she told me she finally felt it all made sense now and that she was at peace with all her question marks now. She felt it helped her a lot to know. She´d always felt it was something wrong with HER and blamed herself for him not keeping in touch even though she desperately tried to keep in contact with him through the years. So you see, not even his own family suspected he had this personality disorder. And my mum felt a penny drop when I told her too. She would never have suspected anything either if I hadn't told her.

How is it Dcs can make both parents have supervised visits with there kid when there not together an one of the parents hasn't done anything wrong.looking at this case makes me think they can make everyone has a baby have supervised visits soon as baby out of the hospital. What happen to right to parent act?

Working at a pregnancy crisis center I am in contact with each of your above situations. We must see that the chil/children come first and foremost. Every city in the U.S. is dealing with the break-down of the American family. Social workers, police officers, probation offers, public defenders and more deal with parents and children on a daily basis. If there is a threat or abuse of one on a child that child will be removed from the home and then the process begins...as to what all the previous posts are about. We all make some poor choices in life....lets not make the poor choices when it comes to being with a man/woman and creating another human life. Date your significant other, be friends, hang out with their families and their friends. Do Not have sex if the relationship is NOT healthy and their is no commitment. If either partner has previous relationships that are explosive, be smart and get out. You each deserve to have love, be respected, and be responsible when bringing a precious baby into this world. Abstinence in a relationship can help you to grow and learn about each other. Build a foundation that cannot be torn down, so when your baby is born they will not have to live in a war zone for the rest of their lives. When you have children, they always come first, someone has to protect them. If you are with a partner or parent who has issues that cause you harm...rest assured your children will be taken from you if there are complaints and you will wonder..what did I do wrong that I have to have supervised visitation with my own child. Look around and find a family that is healthy and happy and start asking questions...find someone older to mentor you. The heartbreak and years of torment your child will have to go thru if you pick the wrong partner is something that can never be erases. Yes you love your child, you say you would do Anything to get them back. Do your strategic planning now. It takes two people to make a baby. Pick someone who is womderful, kind, hardworking, and loving. You will still have rough times in your life, but you will have a loving partner to stand by your side for you and Your children. When you choose an unstable or mean significant other, be prepared, every school, church, neighbor, friend, police officer, and so on is waiting...your child will be taken away....As the judge says in the juvenille courts I go into....In the BEST interest of the juvenile case brought before me today....It will never be your best interes, you are an adult. You did not protect your self...you did not protect your child...that's what professionals see. Be thankful for what supervised visitIon you do get. With the overcrowding of now infants and children under 5...the courts do not have enough monitors to provide visitation...therefore you go without, and sadly so does your child. In my city, a baby under 6 months taken by police and social workers, if the parent is found neglectful, 75 percent of the time the baby is pit in foster care and adopted out. The parent looses all parental rights. If the child is 6-18 months you will have a 6 to 12 month period to complete everything the judge has ordered you to do. Parenting classes, anger management, medical, visitation..if you miss any of those (and the judge does not care if your car breaks down)...your reunification plan is extended...if is happens a second time your parental rights are terminated and your children are place up for adoption. Please love yourself enough to choose the right partner and seek counsel with those that have long and healthy relationships as couples and those couples who have children. YOU deserve to be loved and you will agree you want your child to be LOVED even more. Think about it, YOU get to choose...Choose Wisely and careful. May all the babies and children who are separated from parents, for whatever reason, be kept safe and be taken care of with love.

wow. you win the jerk of the day award.

I think most of the comments have strayed from the substance of the original blog post by Mr. Forman. I have been stuck with supervised visitation for four years simply because the trial judge was too cautious. I might add that he imposed this form of visitation even though it was unrequested relief. The appellate court reversed citing three reversible errors by the trial judge, but still I am stuck waiting for the remand hearing to finish up over two and a half years after the appellate order came down. In the meantime, my relationship with my daughter has taken a nosedive and is likely not recoverable. It does not help that my ex says horrible things about me and uses every opportunity to alienate my daughter from me.

TO ALL OF THOSE WHO ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A NARCISSIST, PLEASE go to the following link. These people never change. EVER. When their mask slips, they become violent and angry...and the mental, emotional and spiritual abuse is so SUBTLE, it erodes your very self. GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN. http://www.melanietoniaevans.com/

Can somebody please help me understand why the courts wont set a limit on time given to complete required psych, parenting & substance abuse evaluations? My ex husband will go months, sometimes even a year at a time without contacting our children. The courts have ended all vistation, even supervised until he complies with weekly AA meetings as well as the evaluations. My question is how long will he be allowed to drag this out?? Everytime our daughters begin to forget (i use the term lightly as their little hearts are so fragile, they feel as if theyr not good enuf for his love) and get used to not seeing him, he will start the whole thing over again. Is there ever a time when the courts will say thats it? Can the courts force him to give up his rights? Both kids just had a bday plus Christmas passed, he never so much as called them. He doesnt seem to care about them, the GAL (kids attorney) appears to be disgusted with him....it just seems like its in the best interest of the kids for the courts to make him choose to either get help or get out of their lives.

You, my lady, have not been in a relationship with one....or you are one. I admit, it is thrown around as a catch-all phrase...or even perhaps as a revenge comment. But being in a relationship with a very real narcissist is not something to look down your nose and act as if it's contrived and we are at fault. I assure you, in a relationship with one, everything is already our fault according to him (or her), and we sure don't need some armchair know-it-all to add to it. At least the victims will self reflect and analyze if it is themselves...something a narcissist will NEVER do...btw. As for me, I was in a relationship with mine for 13 years. Perhaps I did jump into bed with him quickly, but I have to ask Maria, since you're all-knowing, just how long do you think it takes for someone to figure out if their potential lover is a true narcissist...b/c what I am finding is women (and men) have no clue for YEARS. I do agree though that women should not be so free with themselves. But I don't think that is going to solve the narcissist issue.

Safemomma, you could argue that you are breastfeeding (if you are) and that overnights are just not in the best interest of the infant. Over time, however that will change. Do your homework. Keep thorough notes of his behavior with you, and the Child, including times and dates. Remember, just b/c you throw around the term. 'narcissist' does not mean the courts will agree with you. In fact, without a diagnosis, you might be viewed by the courts as the one with a problem. My children are older, but I have hesitated to claim mine an N b/c I didn't get that conclusion from a psychologist, but rather b/c I was majoring in psych in college. It is not unusual for one to go undiagnosed, b/c the nature of an N is that nothing is wrong with them...and thus may NEVER be diagnosed. Good luck! You have no idea what you are in for...bubble your seatbelts! If you need 'friends' find Narcissistic and Emotional Abuse on Facebook

I disagree with what you have posted. What makes you think that a Family Court can determine what is in the best interest of the Child? Family Courts are extensions of the feminist movement throughout progressive western countries meant to empower women. Women along with their non biological partners/boyfriends are responsible for the vast majority of abuse and death to children. Putting children to live with single mothers are also fundamentally a death knell to that childs development as evidenced by reams and reams of data from almost every country. Single mothers are a cancer and family courts are one of the contributing factors. Supervised Visitation is one of the weapons used by mothers with the state as a proxy to enact revenge on her ex. Yet with all of this, rarely does any family court react with this is exposed, nor do they recognize that Father quality are far more determinate in the outcomes of children. Why is it you think that all of a sudden one parent cannot function? DO you go knocking on doors of every family to see which parent cannot function? Family Courts and Family law should be entirely abolished. It contributes to crime in lower income segments of the population by contributing to the Single Mother class.

Yes, do that

You obviously have not dated or been involved with a narcissist long enough to know how manipulative they can be, and usually to otherwise strong and successful women. The narcissist can manipulate any situation and is usually very good at emotional and verbal abuse. You cannot judge a person by what traps they may fall into by a lying and manipulative person unless you have been in the situation yourself. I pray that you never have to find out how horrible it can be.

I am currently on supervised visits with my seven year old daughter. My husband filed for divorce in 2012. He was video taping and tape recording me since 2011. I was going to divorce him mid 2011 but stopped the divorce because I thought we could reconcile. He then went full force on taking control which he has usually done of our daughter's well being school medical dental he even became active in the first grade PTA and coached her sports. He never had so much time the first five years of her life. He was there, but worked late. He was verbally abusive and threw objects in the house. I never did anything because I knew how he was. During 2011 he became very calm. Then the divorce summons came to my surprise. I was very emotional. It was hard to negotiate with him in the house because he wanted the control. I had a hard time with the legal meetings because he lied and stole our money. He moved it into different accounts. From then on he was taping my emotional difficulties. He called me names and useless... I had a melt down and was angry that I threw and object down when our daughter was in the room not intentional. He filmed my commotion and called the police. I was put in jail for a night. Since then I hadn't been back at the house. I have a stay away order of protection from him the house and the dog. I had limited supervised visits which were progressively modified for over a year. They were put into a step by step progression until supervision is lifted. He has sole custody. He has our house. He has our dog. He was asking for physical custody. The negotiation was 50 50 parenting time, with me being the noncustodial parent. A lot of time went by, confusion, isolation and money being spent in legal fees. The court is looking for the best interest of the child. Knowing the development of a child lawyers shouldn't have to mediate custody cases for such a long time period. They should start the negotiation immediately before it truly effects the child.

Why is the legal system promoting toxic situations? I am currently on supervised visits with my seven year old daughter. My husband filed for divorce in 2012. He was video taping and tape recording me since 2011. I was going to divorce him mid 2011 but stopped the divorce because I thought we could reconcile. He then went full force on taking control which he has usually done of our daughter's well being school medical dental he even became active in the first grade PTA and coached her sports. He never had so much time the first five years of her life. He was there, but worked late. He was verbally abusive and threw objects in the house. I never did anything because I knew how he was. During 2011 he became very calm. Then the divorce summons came to my surprise. I was very emotional. It was hard to negotiate with him in the house because he wanted the control. I had a hard time with the legal meetings because he lied and stole our money. He moved it into different accounts. From then on he was taping my emotional difficulties. He called me names and useless... I had a melt down and was angry that I threw and object down when our daughter was in the room not intentional. He filmed my commotion and called the police. I was put in jail for a night. Since then I hadn't been back at the house. I have a stay away order of protection from him the house and the dog. I had limited supervised visits which were progressively modified for over a year. They were put into a step by step progression until supervision is lifted. He has sole custody. He has our house. He has our dog. He was asking for physical custody. The negotiation was 50 50 parenting time, with me being the noncustodial parent. A lot of time went by, confusion, isolation and money being spent in legal fees. The court is looking for the best interest of the child. Knowing the development of a child lawyers shouldn't have to mediate custody cases for such a long time period. They should start the negotiation immediately before it truly effects the child.

My soon to be 16 year old has asked the judge to change the sole custody from my ex to sole custody with me. She has also requested that the judge make contact with my ex be supervised only. How likely is the judge to listen to her requests? My ex is a narcissist as well. My daughter has a progressive disease that is life shortening.

I know This is old but I am dealing with the exact same thing. Been with my husband going on 6 years. We have an almost 5 yr old and a 7 month old. Didn't show his true self towards me until our daughter was born. He threatened to kill me and strangled me while I was holding our then 5 week old. He probably has ptsd, maybe bipolar, maybe he's a psychopath. But he has no remorse. There is so much to it, but like you it all unraveled really fast. Turned out that it was all lies and manipulation from the beginning. For me, it was the second I was helpless (currently on maternity leave without pay) and he had someone who could provide financially for him in a way I could not, was when his mask came off and I saw his cold, calculating, cunning unfeeling side. No morals. He is a veteran of the Marines with an honorable discharge. There is so much more. But you are the first person I have seen who has a similar story. My soon to be ex husband is so charming, handsome and can lie like no ones business. He fools everyone. Everyone. Until he doesn't need or want anything from you anymore, then you see his true nature. It is scary then.

Hi Drake, I agree with Drake to an extend. It is true that some women just like some men would like to name call or talk trash their exes but when all that goes beyond this is a narcissist and what better behavior than the one presently showing with no proofs except the one of hate talking. Relationships have their ups and downs, their good times and bad times. We are all humans and we all make mistakes. But, when we are in a living hell that is not normal. I am a very reasonable person that If i did wrong I will admit it because that's how you are supposed to fix it to not commit it again. I was living with one for 9 years and at first everything was great except that after a little bit I found out it started with a lie. He showed me a fake ID with a different birth date. I accepted his explanation about being in love with me since the first minute he met me. Talked bad about my sister without knowing her and I didn't catch on to these little things. Because it's true about them always having an excuse for every lie. Promised he would never do it again. Was nice, friendly, charming, respectful but rude and obnoxious with the jokes. We liked to play like kids, we would be inseperable except to go to work. Was really jealous and possessive and I thought that because he loved me he was like this and even thought it was cute. Very insecure. I am a really friendly person and have lots of guy friends because I prefer guys over girl friends. I introduced him to every guy friend I had to make him part of my world. After a while I learned all his lies, he was cheating, had another baby with someone etc..... Told me that if he would see me with someone else he would kill me but in a joking way while making love. This is not romantic at all. Every time I would buy something he wanted to buy something similar but more expensive because more money was better quality. Always in a competition. My friends little by little left my side because they couldn't stand his verbal abuse towards me. It took me 12 years to figure this out because after the bad came something good. My family stop coming over to visit because he would wait for someone to come visit for him to start hugging and kissing. Now that we are in court I don't think our kids are safe with him because I know who he is but the courts doesn't believe me because he never went for mental health. He also had or have's a problem with drugs but doesn't admit that it's a problem because it's done on his free time and the court seems to believe that as long as it's not done around the kids it's acceptable because there's not enough evidence that proofs his an addict. They always have an excuse for everything. The love you like no other and then they treat you like their worst enemy because you finally wake up one day and walk away so now your the bad guy that abandoned them and hold resentment towards you. When they find a new love they never loved you in the first place. There emotions are constantly changing that you don't know what they can do next.

alright as a father here i have been reading all these comments here i have personally and am personally experiencing the traumatic down fall of long term supervised visitation. all of you keep throwing the word narcissist around but what you are explaining really has nothing to do with being narcissist if you take a few seconds on google you will find that being a narcissist is not a choice it is a mental disorder in which u would notice the minute you met the individual whether male or female you do not pick and choose when you are a narcissist you either are or aren't one long term supervised visitation in my opinion is never an option you either allow the parent in the childs life or you dont now short term supervised visitation can be okay in certain circumstances such as if he or she was verbally or mentally abusive towards you and your child in which case should only go on long enough to see if he or she is doing what is needed to change their ways but and i say but because all females on here are not going to like what i have to say 90 percent of females now days when it comes to custody act narcissist and use the system and supervised visitation as a tool to get what they want because they feel that they have more right to the child than the father because they are that childs "mother" which is not right false accusations and use of the system is wrong and will be punishable by the law if found to be untrue and is unfair to both the father and the child equal rights were fought for so long by females to turn around and use the same level of wrong step back take a look at ur child and decide what is really right in the end your child being mentally hurt is the same level of wrong as physically hurting that child equal parenting is a must when the father has done no wrong for the good of the child

How did you get him diagnosed as a "pathological" narcisst? What events led to supervision?

If there has never been physical abuse in the family setting and you deny your ex visitation with his/her children..... Guess what? YOU are the narcissist..... Your relationship with your ex is not the same as your ex's relationship with their children. Demanding supervised visitation or denying contact, is child abuse if there has never been domestic violence. And no, verbal fighting is not domestic violence just because some feminists have gotten it put in the books as domestic violence. If you've never been hit. You've never been abused. Every person has two legs to walk away from a situation.

What chance do I have I got him on domestic battery and messages where he is literally trying to destroy me and yelling about or son screaming all day (he was 4 months old and his dad never paid attention to him unless he had to) and telling me come home I can't handle the kid I don't have any weed he's a narcissistic sociopath

My husband has temporary custody of his three children. Their mother repeatedly is in and out of court and getting in trouble with the law and after years of battling the judge finally granted temporary custody. Their mother has supervised visitation and has tried to convince my husband that he is in violation by not allowing her to take the children on her parenting time (her parenting time was taken from her when she lost custody temporarily) well she has now filed an enforcement and contempt of court against his. Their date for the temporary order was already scheduled, i'm concerned that this will affect his negatively at their hearing but on the other hand i feel that she has nothing to stand on. She has only asked once since her rights were taken to see the children with the appointed supervisor, after that she wanted to pick them up her self, my husband refused and thats when she filed... she cant do that right?

It depends..... Did a judge rule that she was only allowed supervised visitation or was it just what your husband decided he wanted for her ....?

It also depends on what she got in trouble for? Lots of parents have hard times or legal troubles..... If similar circumstances always resulted in the loss of parental rights..... About 40% of children from divorced parents would be in foster care...........

Yes a judge ruled her period arrests are for assault

I don't know how it will pan out then. If the assaults were bar fights or at parties or something. I don't really agree with the supervised. But I'm not your judge. Or if the fights were a result of her trying to see her kids, then I really don't agree with the supervised. My opinion. I do also hope that the both of you are being mature enough to allow phone conversations between the children and her. If you aren't allowing even that, I would consider it alienation and child abuse.........

The supervised are a result of a large combination of things not only the arrests... We aren't cruel people of course she is allowed phone calls

That's good. It's hard to judge a situation unless you're there. I am currently alienated from my daughters. No phone calls or contact allowed. There isn't a worse feeling than knowing someone is deliberately destroying your relationship with your children....... It's unexplainable....

How does one present in court that spouse is narcissistic? There is currently a DV protective order and supervised visits until classes are complete. But I know it's unsafe to begin unsupervised in the near future as there's no way to tell if he's really go tten any real help. After times he assaulted me, he always kicked our child's toys and broke some.

Ummm I don't think narcissism is something that can actually be presented in court.... Personality disorders make people narcissists. The legal and mature request would be that your ex get some help for anger management. There is a line to walk with requesting counseling too though. If any of incidents were mutual violence. You can land yourself in counseling as well...... Also your relationship with him is not his relationship with the child. When people that don't get along part ways, they often have a better relationship with their children. Obviously the stress and fighting is no longer present....

Yea I love how you gals talk, without realizing it, like narcissists are all men. Many of them are. The most terrifying creature on this planet is a female narcissist. And trust me there are many. And their numbers are increasing. They are shielded by gender-biased and sexist family court system, however. They very often award custody to these deadly sociopaths who need only cry ABUSE and the feminist, Godless, man and father-destroying courts give them everything. My ex- wife seduced my teenaged son and lived with him for months. Ripping him and his father, ME, to shreds psychologically and emotionally. My son is developmentally damaged severely to this day years later. I have been diagnosed with severe PTSD. Now I watch in helpless horror as she wins custody of my two little girls with her new boyfriend who is 18 years her junior. Yes I have told the judge. I was ignored. I told them this new bf has slapped my daughter in drunken rages. I am ignored. I call CYFD. They see no cause for concern. I am treated like the abusive criminal and denied the right to even speak to my two precious babies. A friend tells me he sees new bf walking downtown last nite. DRUNK. with my daughter. I am losing hope. I am dying inside. There is no justice. This world is EVIL and CORRUPT. I pray God will help me because I am losing hope.

Hey my name is Shannon I married the love of my life 3 years ago and I have done everything that she asked of my.I would even rub she feet and her back and neck every single night and take care of our kids work come home clean cook dinner and one day she would show she loves me the next she is telling me its not working and she would tell me she taking kids and I can't see them well now I'm Divorcing her and I'm working on joint custody but she is narcissistic and she think its everyone else not her now don't get me wrong I still love her with all my heart and I would take her back anytime

Maria, I am guessing/hoping that you want to point out that there are always other sides to the story, (at least three sides for me: side A, side B and side C/truth of the matter). Unfortunately, you are more successful at sounding uninformed and insensitive by your response. As several of the responses indicate, leaving a narcissist is actually a very difficult situation. Many courts are not well prepared to respond to the issues brought to bear by someone who is truly afflicted with one of the Cluster B personality disorders. Make certain you have as much information as possible before you make generalized commentary about any particular situation.

No money, very crooked county in Jackson Co Or. No fact of drug use! No uncontrolled mental illness issue. No fact of poor parenting! Never told by human services authorities or police officers that I could appear in court to fight for my children immediately after being removed from my wife & I! Never issued ANY paperwork at the time of removal!! Not a shred of paperwork on or about August 14,2016 the date of removal! Today now marks nearly 4 months of supervised visitation 2hrs a week! We watch our kids walk away from these visits with looks of shame and guilt and it tears my wife and I apart! I have about 600 college credits and my wife graduated in the top of her class in high school. I received the American legions award when I graduated Jr. High school in California. This shows I did not fall short of any empathy skills at a young age. During my Jr/Sr. years in hi school received many awards for my stewardship and academics. I entered into the big brothers program for the last 2 yrs of high school, worked a part time job and only had to take half the credit load of a normal student my senior year to graduate. Enough of me, I have the best wife who became the best mother to our children. She had "mothered" many other kids before, many of whom are of adult age now and continue to keep that avenue of communication open with their "Auntie", my wife! I now suffer from auto immune deficiency and I know its due to the events that have directly taken place from these horrific events. This Thursday Dec15,2016 I must appear before the judge in a pre trial in my families case. I believe it will take an act of God to deal with this since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We would appreciate your advice on this matter. Thank you, Gregory and Brook Valencia

No money, very crooked county in Jackson Co Or. No fact of drug use! No uncontrolled mental illness issue. No fact of poor parenting! Never told by human services authorities or police officers that I could appear in court to fight for my children immediately after being removed from my wife & I! Never issued ANY paperwork at the time of removal!! Not a shred of paperwork on or about August 14,2016 the date of removal! Today now marks nearly 4 months of supervised visitation 2hrs a week! We watch our kids walk away from these visits with looks of shame and guilt and it tears my wife and I apart! I have about 600 college credits and my wife graduated in the top of her class in high school. I received the American legions award when I graduated Jr. High school in California. This shows I did not fall short of any empathy skills at a young age. During my Jr/Sr. years in hi school received many awards for my stewardship and academics. I entered into the big brothers program for the last 2 yrs of high school, worked a part time job and only had to take half the credit load of a normal student my senior year to graduate. Enough of me, I have the best wife who became the best mother to our children. She had "mothered" many other kids before, many of whom are of adult age now and continue to keep that avenue of communication open with their "Auntie", my wife! I now suffer from auto immune deficiency and I know its due to the events that have directly taken place from these horrific events. This Thursday Dec15,2016 I must appear before the judge in a pre trial in my families case. I believe it will take an act of God to deal with this since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We would appreciate your advice on this matter. Thank you for your urgent response, Gregory and Brook Valencia

Attorney Greg, Do you by any chance know of any case citations that address/incorporates these issues in the decisions?

I have supervised visitation with arm guards for two years. Dad acussed me falsely of child abuse which was never proven. He got a Doctor "Romirosky" saying I refuse therapy when it was never offered to me.

I do not believe those facts or accusations. The supervised visitation is used as a weapon. If anything not taking your children to fun events will cause the other parent to have ptsd. It will make it worse and push them away.

Let's just be frank and cut to the chase here... My husband decided that using me as his punching bag was more convenient than getting help for his mental, psychological, and emotional issues, so when he turned his "red-zone" anger on our then 4 year old daughter, I kicked him out. He filed for divorce 5 months later and terrorized me until being handed temporary sole custody by my own attorney, via stipulation. A convicted DV perpetrator now has all control over our daughter and I have supervised visits... FOR WHAT REASON? All I do know is that our daughter is permanently traumatized by the legal abuse inflicted by this court and the injustice occurring. Unless a parent is found to be UNFIT through due process of a criminal act, the rights to both parent and child should never be violated

My daughters father was court ordered after his fourth DUI to sign up for supervised visits through a state funded child advocacy program until he can pass three consecutive hair follicles and attend a couple of classes. That was two years ago and he has yet to sign up or for the classes or register for the visitations. My daughter and her father were extremely close and this has caused emotional turmoil for her. He has never provided financial support ...paying 100 dollars every three months to keep him off of the Attorney Generals radar . He is very capable of paying child support, he owns a very successful business, he just choses not to pay being that he isn't a part of her life anymore. I have tried everything I can to keep him in my daughters life, even going through the proper steps of the courts. Its been two years. What do I do now?

what about being forced into supervised visitation without any steps to remove supervised, without any time limits, and four years later, not allowed a court hearing to modify? what if the restriction was made from a court without jurisdiction, then the court with jurisdiction adopts the order without ever deciding whether supervision is needed, or hearing any evidence, and once again, without providing reasonable steps to remove? what about supervision at 4 hours a month for the last four years without a single hearing to produce evidence or expert witnesses? what about a cps juvenile court case that strikes an expert doctor that declares there is no mental illness, but the judge and the social worker both decide on their own, without any experts that there must be a mental illness, based on hearsay? What about an order from juvenile court that allowed hearsay evidence to be adopted in family court- without a hearing and without any expert witness at all stating there is a mental illness? what if the parent with the supervised visitation has four separate doctors, three of which they had no part in choosing, all declare there is no mental illness, but the judge has refused to allow a hearing to produce evidence in?

you sound like a person who is alienating a parent.

the very fact that she thinks phone conversations is an ok substitute to parent time shows they are alienation a parent and thus emotionally abusing the child. shame on you bianca.

It's been over 3 years and I have had less than an hour a week supervised visitation after a motion to relocate hearing where my son came out and accused his father of molesting him. The judge said "I don't like you (me) you have 1 hour to turn your son over to his father for abusing him putting these thoughts in his head". She refuses to recuse herself though does not practice family law anymore. She required a note from a therapist who also sided with my son and myself, then referred to it as unsolicited. I'm at a loss. I haven't gotten to speak to my son this entire time on the court ordered calls (per father and father's partner). And no visits since Nov 7th 2016. My son is in and out of ER /psych for attempting suicide. Any help. Please.

You sound like you're more concerned about the kids not seeing their mother than anyone. All I'm reading is abuse on your part. Sad.

So you stepped on your exes legal rights just to benefit you but when it bit back you now think the legal system should be more fair to both parents and child???!!!! If you have or had some way to back up wrong doing . Do it. Think about the harm you put on your kid and the other parent. Not just think about you you you. Hence "ME" ME"ME!". Is this how they made it sound? Next time you are being abused in front of your kid dont stay there for 4 years or til they harm yoir kid its abuse that your kid is still being subjected to mentally.

In California Supervised visits are being used as a litigation tactic and financial weapon against parents . It is rare that parents who acted normally prior to a divorce or custody battle would suddenly need to be supervised with their own children it is very embarrassing for children as well and can cause life long problems.

What about a parent who fled abuse from her child's father, only to be cornered by cps and the fathers whole network of pro-father activists. Not being able to afford an attorney in family court and being tricked by the fathers attorney into signing a temp which he then gained full custody. I have been bamboozled by the best of the best and the most justified state agency. The same protection agency who were caught lying about saying my UA's were dirty for drugs, but nothing happened, They weren't even slapped on the wrist and I was told I could not ask for a trial . CPS just dismissed, moved the case to family court and then wrote a pretty report in favor of the father who has an extensive drug & criminal & DV history. There was no way in hell I was going to even get a Judge to consider any facts or merits of law and Iv'e been buckled ever since. I want to be with my daughter, it's been 4 years and I'm scared if I ask to change the plan, I'd be up against the same brick wall ,major emotional & physical abuse & control by the father,. I admit , the last four years I have felt literally paralyze. I have behaved almost child-like and behaving like a victim has not turned my life around but I know for fact, this mess would not have happened had I not took our daughter and tried to leave with her in the first place. Not having my "ducks-in-a-row" before hand. was my defeat. again There was nothing on me that was concrete from the beginning. The father is a different story as far as reputation, etc...

In DC Supervised visits are used as a litigation tactic and financial weapon against parents, incidentally against children . It is very sad, humiliating and embarrassing for children, but very lucrative for family lawyers. In DC they have a long-standing joint custody law, and admin. orders mandating use of structured family mediation in place of adversarial methods of dispute resolution (and its attending cruelty and violence). The local judges in DC family courts are local family lawyers by statute, whose income was a direct function of inter-parent-conflict, i.e., the number of children harmed, and of the severity of emotional and financial harm to minor children and their parents. Needless to say, these judges do not comport with the letter or spirit of DC laws/admin. orders most closely and specifically defining the best interests of minor children (and their parents who are directly before the court). To little surprise, they terrorize minor children and their parents in DC, by routinely failing to treat the parents equally, and by failing to comply with DC administrative orders, and requiring issues be resolved through structured family mediation, rather than warfare, aggression, poverty and violence. Any judicial officer in any family court, whether law clerk, magistrate, associate judge, should be required to have the qualification of being one of the most skilled "neutrals" in the jurisdiction, preferably among the most highly skilled family mediators. This will protect young, vulnerable children from family litigation industry torturers, abusers and famly preds!

Yes, supervised visits in the current US family court context generally harms minor children, and both their parents. Yet it is extremely lucrative for the family lawyers proposing this horror chamber for the children, parents and extended families.impacted. Many family court judges, who are seething with guild, rage and other emotions, order supervised visits indefinitely. This happens even in the nation's capital.

Welcome to our corrupt, incompetent, greed and conflict-driven family courts! Family courts declared war on US children and their families quite a long time ago. Only now have parents been wired, organized and numerous enough to turn this into a massive, sweeping and grand Sparticus moment. Americans, millions of mothers and fathers are slowly but surely fighting back against the US family courts, particularly Millenials, who were targeted by family lawyers and family courts in disproportionate numbers. Over 5 million aggrieved, bankrupted and angry parents, have fought endlessly, almost helplessly, to protect their minor children, and vice versa, from cruel, pig-mouthed, sleaze-ball, child abusing, coward family lawyers, and family court judges serving their greed interests, These millions of now battle-hardened fighters, are increasingly aware of the actual identities of their extremely cruel tormentors. As they say, the burden on the slave master, is often as big as the burden on the slave.

We Have DSS making monthly visits to our home now for 3 months and seem to think they will continue to do so way into the forseeable future. My wife and zi had an altercation Aig10, 2019, where pushing and shoving were involved. Because Our children were home, in their rooms the State decides that that is reason enough to harrass our family continuously for months. After we both seeing accusations of CpS & dss being 8nv9lved in child trafficking over the past few years. My wife is stressed every month. Yes, we allowed ourselves to argue to intensely. Are we divorcing or separating? No. I am in the three trees counseling program for 26 weeks, which helps me to understand better ways to communicate in my marriage. Our marriage is stronger than ever. Yet dss feels they somehow can continue to harras and view our family through a microscope monthly... hoping to find something. We are normal upper middle class, church going family, with well behaved children in a great school system. How do we stop these ridiculous visits. Dss has ignored what the Solicitors office allowed me to do, which was return home for my family. Stating they have nothing to do with that case, yet insert themselves mo.thly into our lives. Frustrated.

This is supposed to be a thread about supervised visitation. Not a debate about narcissists or why someone got into a reationship with another. SHIT HAPPENS. It astonishes me how close minded and judgemental people can be. This happens in family law ALL THE TIME. It stoos beiung about the child and ends up a verbal attack full of exagerations lies and pointing fingers. Its not about WINNING its about the well being of the CHILD Not the opinion of 1 parent of another or payback. it pisses me off how some people use their kids like that. i pulled up this thread to get info about child visitation and custody laws not a debate on narcissism ot to hear people hgave to defend and explain WHY they have a child with whoever they had it with. BE ADULTS GUYS AND STAY ON TOPIC. ITS ABOUT THE KIDS NOT THE ADULTS.

Are you serious? I am in a similar situation and my daughter is terrified of her father who has in addition to abusing her for years has physically harmed many blood relatives and s/o in front of her and improperly uses a gun she thinks he will kill her and our family with because she came home after a visit and told on him. She is now seven and still very afraid to see him. He has purposely refused treatment, evaluations, to turn in his gun during his two injunction periods (and while having a warrant for five months). He comes to our home now all of a sudden unannounced in the night on non visitation days and has even harassed my grandmother in the night falsely alleging to police that he needs to pick up his daughter. There have been six cases with multiple murders of women and their children in this and surrounding counties since all this has happened to us. There are plenty of courts who would give the children away just like they did this lady for just trying to protect them. This system is not made for justice and these children and their families are suffering. Have a heart and be for real.

Was this doctor from PA or Delaware

We are grandparents who had my daughter at age 15 stay with us after her first baby and the father for almost a yr, then 2 yrs later she had another baby and the father of that one lived with us for almost 2 yrs. Then she had a third one and the father of that one lived with us for 2 yrs. Well this past yr she & he had afight in our home and he was charged with assault * battery on her, his 4yr old and her 8 yr. old. In Jan of this yr. all children were removed from our home & plced in 2 different homes and we can't see them,speake to them or have any gifts accepted from us to them by the other people. Do you have a suggestion what we should or could do. We have supervisied visitation at the discretion of the other people.

My ex attended 5 appts Or less when our child got out of 116 day stay at the NIU when we’re in the Nicu he did visit every day for an hour or so which I carefully planned our child’s entire schedule around that to make sure his father could be a part of his care when we got home from the Nicu, his father didn’t like the attention the baby got so he started to get jealous, and he started to get mean which made me even less likely to want to cater to him. As time went on, there was more issues and I continue to say that maybe we should split before it got too bad we should take some time to figure it out spend some time apart always stating I never wanted to take his son away from him or his family that would always be important. My family lived on the other coast. It was during Covid. We didn’t get to see my family at all or any of my friends that I’ve known for 20-30 years. he started to do things to set me up. Once when I was sleeping, he put our son in the bed and our son rolled out of the bed. I FaceTime him he came home and screamed at me and left. Then he came back while it was breast pumping, and he took our kid in my car without leaving other keys to go to the hospital. Even after I talk to a nurse and our son was fine. Trust me he was going to get medical care, but the nurse said there was no reason of subject him to the ER that actually because of Covid, it sounded like that would be the biggest of risks. Either way. His father is always putting him in harms way just for a chance to make me look bad these kind of situations happened again and again, and the third time I finally that was sure of it no matter what anybody else told me I knew he was trying to kick me out of our home and make me homeless and then take her child for me all the way to punish me, he made many comments throughout our time together, though that what a wonderful mother, I was house, best suited to make all the medical decisions because I know best you know he wouldn’t even make decisions with me. He left the whole burden on me, which I didn’t want I wanted to share in those decisions and I wanted some of them to be fun when it came to food and whatever anyways down the line he takes me to a therapist that’s $250 a session when we both have insurance that can co-pay 35. I’m thinking we could use that extra money for a babysitter and I can go to the gym and then you don’t have to keep telling me how fat I am , yeah It was ugly like that . So time goes on he stages a DV incident. I didn’t realize when he came from work because injuries, but I guess he had some injuries when he came home from work he called the police and said that I did them even the police knew he was full of it because they left me at home with my child and sent him off, I flood and did not leave the state. I actually called the police department. They said it was OK there so many I can’t even imagine where to begin but that’s how it started now I’m on supervised visitation and it’s so expensive and I’m still homeless I’ll probably never get my kid back , he’s pulled with the police. He says I’m on drugs he managed to get my toxic family to sign papers that said I was going to kill myself in the baby. Crazy crazy crazy shit we’ve had two child custody investigations. None of them have any actual evidence against me all the evidence points I’m a fat mother, being that when they ran the car reports a child abuse registry with the medical people and all the things CPS whatever there’s like a lot of things , that did the check all the things and the place from the false allegation like all the things there’s never been anything that says that I did anything wrong except for him and his supporters no outside party no nonbiased party. My psychiatrist said I was totally with it totally capable of parenting, no suicidal ideation, or homicidal at all , the judge ignored it and said she wanted to talk to my therapist which my therapist said that it was out of the scope of practice and the only reason I was psychiatrist is because of my ADHD, and the reason I had a therapist was because of the emergency assistance I received and being homeless they wouldn’t let me get a job. It was required that I do the family stabilization thing instead of the work ready program in the hospital with Marissa, just the same time as all these investigations for the suicide, I was never in court defend myself. They made all the crucial decisions when I was out there they gave them so custody. I knew that they would never never get them back. Doesn’t mean that I’m not gonna try, but I’m really trying for the other people out there because I know that my case is lost , so if anything like this is happening to you, do you have to whatever you have to getting a good lawyer would be the best thing to do but I would say anything is OK when you’re looking at the life of your child

A parent or child oustide a family unit is a self contained entity. a child is supposed to be on one team protected by Cheisy not on three seperated teams. The courts only desire is to remove the civil rights of men women and children so that they are permanently alienated members of the tyrannic state forever in poverty.